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Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

nytimes.com

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Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#151

Post by estearum »

Manuel_D wrote: post #67
cogman10 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail. It is possible for retail. For example, you can simply not display the price. You can display a price range. You can use EInk displays which auto-update based on who's approaching the item. And of course it's infinitely possible in an online store. One example of how this is being employed is McDonalds trying to push everyone to use the app…

How would that work? The barcode on the item doesn't get rewritten, the checkout counter can't distinguish who picked up which exact item. Even if they did assign unique barcodes to each item, what happens if you take the item off the shelf, and put it in someone else's cart? They'd be charged the wrong price for the item.

The way McDonald's does this that they essentially offer discounts that you can only get by using the mobile app, and the mobile app can dynamically price your cart however they wish. All they (or any other business) has to do is to increase their non-mobile prices to squeeze out non-identifiable shopping.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#152

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #146
hermannj314 wrote: post #139

[flagged]

This actually seems like a pretty uniting issue. I haven't seen many politicians of any party openly come out in favor of the sort of price discrimination banned by this bill.

Came to say the same thing. Though calling it 'price discrimination' will bring out the MAGAs who will reflexively conclude that banning it must be woke/DEI and then demand to have it everywhere. Better to call it 'diverse pricing' to get the opposite reaction.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#153

Post by Drakim »

estearum wrote: post #149
elil17 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores have tiny margins and that's great. Let's keep it that way, it benefits all consumers. One way to prevent them from expanding their margins is to ban so-called "dynamic pricing".

This is hilariously first-order-effects thinking... If any store used dynamic pricing to expand their margins, the others would just do the same and compete away those margins once again, with the marginal gain being handed back to consumers. Dynamic pricing on personal data is bad I think, but temporal dynamic pricing is actually very good for everyone and I hope it doesn't get thrown out by some reckless legislatio…

That's the ideal dream scenario, but in reality the market isn't that efficient. Lots of markets gouge their customers and due to power imbalances the customers can't really do anything about it. The free market solution to this is just generally to let people suffer.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#154

Post by PearlRiver »

technothrasher wrote: post #131

Massachusetts has had fair pricing laws for grocery stores for years that I suspect already de-facto ban "dynamic pricing". It requires grocery stores to ring up the item at the lowest marked or advertised price, or the item is free. It also requires all items to be marked (or have scanners available to show the price), so they can't get around it by just not showing prices.

In my country prices are often wrong because supermarkets are run by a small team of literal teenagers (one of the downsides of having decent minimum wages is that nobody wants to hire anyone if they somehow can avoid it).

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#155

Post by throwaw12 »

estearum wrote: post #149
elil17 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores have tiny margins and that's great. Let's keep it that way, it benefits all consumers. One way to prevent them from expanding their margins is to ban so-called "dynamic pricing".

This is hilariously first-order-effects thinking... If any store used dynamic pricing to expand their margins, the others would just do the same and compete away those margins once again, with the marginal gain being handed back to consumers. Dynamic pricing on personal data is bad I think, but temporal dynamic pricing is actually very good for everyone and I hope it doesn't get thrown out by some reckless legislatio…

> If any store used dynamic pricing to expand their margins, the others would just do the same and compete away those margins once again, with the marginal gain being handed back to consumers.

How would you do it if pricing is dynamic and changes every day?

By the time competitor finds out about the price, you might have already reduced it, making it look like theirs is more expensive even after they applied discount.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#156

Post by wildzzz »

atestu wrote: post #144
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "membership discount" (assuming you don't mean coupons) in the context of a grocery store? Can you give an example of a major grocery store that has one? For what it's worth, > The bill clarifies that certain practices, such as promotional pricing, loyalty programs, or price differences based on objective costs like shipping, are not considered prohibited dynamic pricing.

Harris Teeter is an example of a large chain that has promotions (not coupons) that are applied at checkout only if you have your VIC card (their free membership program). There’s a lot of BOGO, a few dollars off etc offers that are tagged to the price label throughout the store.

I used to shop at HT at the last place I lived. It was always crazy seeing all of those discounts pop up. I don't know if I was actually saving money over the other stores nearby but it certainly felt like it. Honestly, I like shopping at Lidl now. My grocery bill always feels much cheaper. I don't get much savings using my phone number, I think they want you to clip coupons on the app but I still walk out paying less than I would elsewhere. A large portion of the stuff at Lidl are not major brands, I suspect they are the companies that produce white label products for store brands.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#157

Post by olsondv »

josefrichter wrote: post #109

Wait, isn't this prohibited already? Some of it may be a gray zone, but a good portion of it is already downright illegal in many countries, and the rest is extremely unethical.

It’s likely just posturing for political support. No nation-wide law that I’m aware of exists in the US. In my state, the lowest advertised or displayed price is the honored price. They have to update the shelf price before the register’s. Any difference gets a refund which unfortunately is not automatic. Requires vigilance by the consumer but it would prevent this type of AI pricing.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#159

Post by ReptileMan »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #141
chronc6393 wrote: post #140

> The practice — supported by artificial intelligence and known as dynamic pricing or surveillance pricing — can lead to two consumers paying different amounts for the same item from the same retailer, at roughly the same time. Is an if-statement considered AI? So membership discounts should be banned?

What is a "membership discount" (assuming you don't mean coupons) in the context of a grocery store? Can you give an example of a major grocery store that has one? For what it's worth, > The bill clarifies that certain practices, such as promotional pricing, loyalty programs, or price differences based on objective costs like shipping, are not considered prohibited dynamic pricing.

[flagged]

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#160

Post by danlitt »

estearum wrote: post #149
elil17 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores have tiny margins and that's great. Let's keep it that way, it benefits all consumers. One way to prevent them from expanding their margins is to ban so-called "dynamic pricing".

This is hilariously first-order-effects thinking... If any store used dynamic pricing to expand their margins, the others would just do the same and compete away those margins once again, with the marginal gain being handed back to consumers. Dynamic pricing on personal data is bad I think, but temporal dynamic pricing is actually very good for everyone and I hope it doesn't get thrown out by some reckless legislatio…

Dynamic pricing based on personal data is not even a market, let alone a perfectly competitive one. Temporal dynamic pricing can mean almost anything, so might be ok (early bird lunch deal) or pure evil (bottled water now costs $100 because there is lead in the tap water).
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