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Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

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Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#151

Post by joquarky »

gordonhart wrote: post #94
chromacity wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Why? I get the warm-and-fuzzy angle of "instilling civic responsibility", but you're effectively instilling that at gunpoint: the government forces you to do this, else you go to prison. Is that really such an enlightened thing to do? It takes away two years of your life, po…

> the government forces you to do this, else you go to prison You'll never guess what happens if you choose not to pay taxes.

They use tax money to house and feed you?

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#152

Post by vaylian »

sheikhnbake wrote: post #145
b00ty4breakfast wrote: post #66

Unless you have popular support behind you, a draft is a great way to make your military less effective. You get a bunch of soldiers who don't want to be there, who may not do their job to the utmost either out of apathy or active malice. It also gives lots of people, who might otherwise passively disagree with your war, a great incentive to actively resist your war and your attempts to force them to fight in it. It…

This is very much anecdotal but the concept of fragging has gone mainstream in my social media feeds. Mostly gen z joking about ww3 when the Iran conflict kicked off

What is fragging?

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#153

Post by r0m4n0 »

chromacity wrote: post #63
_doctor_love wrote: post #20

Other countries have compulsory military service, for example Finland. Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Military service would just be one option, could be other kinds of civic engagement. This can really help people feel connected to their society and understand that there is something to show up for. BUT -…

> Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Why? I get the warm-and-fuzzy angle of "instilling civic responsibility", but you're effectively instilling that at gunpoint: the government forces you to do this, else you go to prison. Is that really such an enlightened thing to do? It takes away two years of your life, po…

I'm not sure what I believe is right but one thing I can think of is there could be a bias for a certain type of people to join branches of the military and therefore our capabilities are held back by that bias. The same goes for companies that work with the military/defense which I think the parent article lays out as well.

If you allow everyone to pick and choose what they want to do, we may actually end up (or already have ended up) with all of the talented people and cutting edge businesses chasing money here and only second tier folks working with and for the government.

I think a great example of this is with NASA. They are doing a big hiring blitz (someone posted about it recently here). They have a ton of openings but I have to imagine that the talented folks that work in the field are chasing the money that is paid by private companies right now. I personally believe NASA is an important thing that needs to exist and we need to figure out a way to make it happen. Maybe we need to just pay folks more to make them incentivized to work in government? Maybe even more so if you working for the armed forces because you lose a lot of people based upon the sheer fact that your life is more at risk.

It would definitely be worth some research. I don't think free market concepts align well with working in the armed forces and there could be some arguments that we need to tip the scales to make it work better. For some things like the usual government services that aren't vital for our existence, I think we can all accept the longer wait at the DMV or the two decades to get a Real ID implemented. I don't think we can accept not defending our own country from an adversarial invasion so we need to make that importance reflected somewhere.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#154

Post by ux266478 »

_doctor_love wrote: post #70
amadeuspagel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland doesn't have compulsory military service to help people feel connected to their society. Feeling connected to one's society is not an end in itself, people should be free to choose how connected they want to feel. Finland has compulsory military service because it's a small country that borders Russia. The US is a big country that borders Canada and Mexico.

> people should be free to choose how connected they want to feel Yes and no. Of course people should be free, at the same time you live in a society and not a state of nature. If someone never has to put back into society, that's dangerous. It could lead to people feeling that society has no value, that there's no sense in investing in it, that since nobody else cares why should I. That's not a world I want to live…

Do bureaucratic mandates instill a humanistic sense of value and commitment, particularly in societies which are at peak levels of institutional skepticism?

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#155

Post by beedeebeedee »

I've read their tweet: https://x.com/PalantirTech/status/2045574398573453312

It's hard to take them seriously given the omission of the biggest catastrophe of the 2000s-2020s that underlies everything they do, i.e., wealth inequality, the creation of a parasitic ruling class that uses propaganda to control the political narrative (and seeking AI for even greater control with less support), and the destitution of the poor by the rich, from the manufactured opium epidemic, gig economy, financial crises, etc.

Their sundry list reminds me of the smarty boys in undergrad philosophy who pretend to be great philosophers before they have taken even one step into self-criticism and self-knowledge.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#156

Post by dualvariable »

rhcom2 wrote: post #58
causal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of civic engagement / service in theory too, but I feel like the Vietnam war was a demonstration of possible failure modes when draft is in place: a lot of poor kids died, some rich kids allegedly used parental influence to dodge the draft. No incentive for leaders to avoid war while loop holes remain for their own interests.

I think you could argue the draft forced the war to be real for more families (and the expansion of TV), intensifying the resistance to it. Quick googling says almost 10% of the population served in Vietnam in some capacity. Less than 1% served in the War on Terror. This was part of Charles Rangel's (D) reasoning to propose bringing back the draft. [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_National_Service_Act

> I think you could argue the draft forced the war to be real for more families (and the expansion of TV), intensifying the resistance to it.

Yeah, it did, all the young men of draft age had to live knowing that they might get drafted and be forced to fight and die. Even if they were never called, or in retrospect were too old at the time.

We seem to have largely forgotten that now, along with the "Vietnam Syndrome" that the US military "suffered" through until we were successful in applying military force in 1991 with the Gulf War.

I almost hope they're successful in doing this. We've also lost the focus on clearly defined objectives for war.

It seems like we need a horrible mess to learn all the hard lessons all over again.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#157

Post by Teever »

joquarky wrote: post #147
Teever wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it didn't delay your education? In some countries an undergrad degree is only three years. I'd take a person with 1 year of civil service + 3 years of a degree over someone with 4 years of a degree any day. Somebody who is confident enough to handle a rifle and throw a hand grenade is way more useful to me than someone who was forced to another literature or geology course. Have someone demonstrate a command…

Who's going to pay for that?

Taxpayers in non-failed states like Finland that are able to provide astoundingly high quality of life for their citizens while also providing a strong military that is based around mandatory national service.

Finland has been rated the happiest country in the world what, eight or nine years in a row now and was able to secure they borders against a overwhelmingly more capable neighbour with no participation in a mutual aid defensive alliance like NATO until very recently.

In so many ways Finland is the model we should all be looking at emulating in Western countries.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#158

Post by stronglikedan »

_doctor_love wrote: post #20

Other countries have compulsory military service, for example Finland. Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Military service would just be one option, could be other kinds of civic engagement. This can really help people feel connected to their society and understand that there is something to show up for. BUT -…

> what are American soldiers dying for?

The American way of life, which is still the most preferred way of life, as evidenced by (a) people wanting to emigrate here more than any other country in the world and (b) more people immigrating here than any other country.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#159

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

MengerSponge wrote: post #108
Drupon wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People greatly overestimate the number of Vietnam vets who were drafted.

For others' sake, I double-checked: 2.59 million served, of which 648,500 were draftees. Right at 25% Is there a study of soldiers who enlisted but only because their draft number was low? There were substantial benefits to enlisting, because you could choose your branch of service.

Should break that down by people who had enlisted before hostilities began. Material difference enlisting during peace time vs when there is an active theater of war.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#160

Post by _doctor_love »

unethical_ban wrote: post #105
chromacity wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Why? I get the warm-and-fuzzy angle of "instilling civic responsibility", but you're effectively instilling that at gunpoint: the government forces you to do this, else you go to prison. Is that really such an enlightened thing to do? It takes away two years of your life, po…

Devil's advocate. First, "national service" does not necessarily mean relocation like a military deployment does. Second, there is no requirement that national service be free. This has me thinking about a way to encourage some level of public service in exchange for better access to government programs, like an extra 10% in retirement benefits or something. Reminds me of Starship Troopers: "Service Guarantees Citize…

> Starship Troopers

So, disclaimer: I'm very aware that Verhoeven created Starship Troopers satirizing fascism and holding up a mirror to American society.

That said, I am somewhat a fan of the idea that citizenship is something that should be earned. For example, birthright citizenship - I think it's a good thing and should be kept around. That said, as far as I know no natural-born American is required to raise their right hand and swear that they will take up arms to defend the United States in case of war. A naturalized citizen is required to do this. That creates a real bifurcation in the society in my opinion.

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