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Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

bbc.com

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Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#151

Post by bryanrasmussen »

bawolff wrote: post #148
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess dying because you think you’re going to impress’s a mate and stay alive is quite common. based on my memory of readings in the matter I don't think so, most animal species "impress a mate" is either 1. do mating ritual better than others 2. actually directly compete with rival who has mate to win mate. In the second more rare scenario the actually directly compete with rival tends to be very ritualized, and…

In fairness, i dont think dying to impress a girl is particularly common among humans either.

that's true, but among humans the "impressing a girl" pattern seems to be more open ended as to how you will do it, and thus you end up with croc-riding accidents at times.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#152

Post by NitpickLawyer »

emilsedgh wrote: post #130
bad_username wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the outright political warfare in the US you are alluding to began much earlier than 2020. Things were getting quite ulhealthy already back in 2015/2016, probably even earlier. The "black swan" for this deep division was (I believe) not the epidemic, but the proliferation of the smartphone and social media, and the earlier transitioning of traditional news to infotainment format.

I'd attribute it to 2008 financial collapse, and in general, the pressure put on the middle class that began a decade earlier. And I genuinely believe blaming things on social media and news is just a diversion so we wouldn't look at the main issue.

I always viewed social media as a catalyst, not the main cause. We've always have this at smaller scales / more local scales, throughout the human history. Social media just lets bob meet alice in a virtual plane, while they couldn't meet and share ideas before. But the ideas, even if reinforced by tech, were always there.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#153

Post by heavyset_go »

bluegatty wrote: post #64
londons_explore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems obvious to me - it's the combination of two ideas: 1. When competing for resources, killing your neighbour frees up resources, which you can take. Most species of animal and even plants do this to some extent. 2. By collaborating in a group, you can achieve more than individuals acting alone. This is the idea behind teams, companies, countries, etc. Combine the two ideas, and you get war.

Yes, but war is worse for all parties generally. Lions murdering prey to eat is a stable equilibrium. Primates fighting each other is not. Murdering for acquisition of a resource is short term advantage. We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder' - it's the original sin. It's not something we even argue over. Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures. Murder = social cheating. No disagreem…

> Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures.

That's not a given. Look at the Old Testament, it professes that you shall not kill, but is also full of laws that are upheld by death, stories of just killings, etc and the whole thing is written via dictation from a war god.

In cultures where honor is a big thing, it can be seen as just to kill those who bring dishonor or to maintain honor.

In cultures where purity/cleanliness is a big thing, it can be seen as just to kill those who are impure/unclean.

Not as simple as murder bad

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#154

Post by vasco »

Sharlin wrote: post #127
ozim wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dying in your prime reproductive age! I guess dying because you think you’re going to impress’s a mate and stay alive is quite common.

On the contrary, that's very uniquely and peculiarly human stupidity, possibly caused by the fact that our brains take so long to fully mature. In other species, competing for mates (just like territory) is typically highly ritualized exactly because getting seriously hurt is the opposite of adaptive.

Maybe google "Terminal Investment"

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#158

Post by bluegatty »

heavyset_go wrote: post #153
bluegatty wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but war is worse for all parties generally. Lions murdering prey to eat is a stable equilibrium. Primates fighting each other is not. Murdering for acquisition of a resource is short term advantage. We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder' - it's the original sin. It's not something we even argue over. Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures. Murder = social cheating. No disagreem…

> Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures. That's not a given. Look at the Old Testament, it professes that you shall not kill, but is also full of laws that are upheld by death, stories of just killings, etc and the whole thing is written via dictation from a war god. In cultures where honor is a big thing, it can be seen as just to kill those who bring dishonor or to maintain honor. In cultures where purity/c…

All cultures, even it seems primates, discriminate between notions of 'arbitrary murder' and 'justice' implying different things.

And it's all roughly consistent.

Arbitrary murder is always 'wrong' across cultures.

Self defence is almost always considered reasonable and a form of justification.

Even basic cultures developed sense of 'justice' as retribution or punishment.

It gets a bit more complicated in terms of organized violence, but even there, it's generally always considered moral in the posture of defence, just as it were a single person defending themselves.

For other things, it's more complicated.

And of course 'war parties' and 'arbitrary retribution' has always been there, aka 'they slighted us, we harm them' absent true moral justification. That's always been problematic, admittedly.

Also "and the whole thing is written via dictation from a war god." this is not an appropriate assertion (not nice or welcome)

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#159

Post by londons_explore »

JohnMakin wrote: post #134
londons_explore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems obvious to me - it's the combination of two ideas: 1. When competing for resources, killing your neighbour frees up resources, which you can take. Most species of animal and even plants do this to some extent. 2. By collaborating in a group, you can achieve more than individuals acting alone. This is the idea behind teams, companies, countries, etc. Combine the two ideas, and you get war.

orangutans deal with similar and are notorious for being peaceful

orangutans murder eachother too sometimes. Their hand grip is enough to crush another's skull, and occasionally they do so.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#160

Post by eastbound »

bluegatty wrote: post #64
londons_explore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems obvious to me - it's the combination of two ideas: 1. When competing for resources, killing your neighbour frees up resources, which you can take. Most species of animal and even plants do this to some extent. 2. By collaborating in a group, you can achieve more than individuals acting alone. This is the idea behind teams, companies, countries, etc. Combine the two ideas, and you get war.

Yes, but war is worse for all parties generally. Lions murdering prey to eat is a stable equilibrium. Primates fighting each other is not. Murdering for acquisition of a resource is short term advantage. We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder' - it's the original sin. It's not something we even argue over. Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures. Murder = social cheating. No disagreem…

> We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder'

The quantity of murders in bad neighborhoods tends to contradict. Even seems like a matter of routine wealth acquisition. Yes, society tries to chase the murderers but, I know the figure for France, even only 40% of murders get solved.

We’ve just built a fragile social construct that not everyone recognizes, against murder, among wealthy societies mostly.

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