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The Importance of Being Idle

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Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#151

Post by graemep »

ben_w wrote: post #103
graemep wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its complacency, at least in Western Europe. Centuries of being the world's leading powers have left an underlying sense of being at the top is just normal and is a position that does not need work to maintain. Even those who might accept this is no longer true intellectually find it hard to internalise.

I don't think that's the current problem. It was up to, perhaps, the Suez crisis or up until decolonisation, but since then I think we've mostly internalised that America (and more recently China) have been the leading powers. The current complacency, one which we are currently still in the process of unwinding from (it will take years) is that of trade turning violent enemies into mutually beneficial growth opportun…

While Europe internalised that the US was the super power, it did not internationalise that the West was no longer dominant. It has also not understood its diminishing importance to the US in the world in which its economy is proportionately so much smaller, and the rival superpower is in Asia, not Europe.

Spending on defence is expensive, but its a lot cheaper than an actual war - "if you want peace, prepare for war"

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#154

Post by fl4regun »

mountainb wrote: post #144
artirdx wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is not behind because Europeans are working less and taking more vacations. This message that is being loudly broadcasted hides the real problem. Europe is behind because we do not have good leadership. The decisions taken by leadership, no matter what level you look at - local, company, national, supranational - are rarely in the best interest of Europeans. Our markets - housing, rental, labor, capital, pensi…

The best way to understand European policy is that at a high level they want to establish a quota system both within Europe and globally. The problem with creating a quota system is that you have to be able to punish countries who cheat on the quota. Europe doesn't have the capacity to do this except internally. The regulatory superpower idea only really makes sense with the physical power to compel obedience and ext…

Why are you arguing for EU member states to become US territories instead of EU states just federalizing?

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#155

Post by fl4regun »

mr_toad wrote: post #100
raincole wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that Europeans embracing being idle. It's that they realized typical white collar workers hardly produce any value (unlike Americans who still pretend they do) so it makes no difference for them to work less than 40 hours per week. Junior doctors across Europe reported working an average of 57 ± 17 hours per week (216 ± 61 hours per month)[0]. [0]: https://www.juniordoctors.eu/assets/rest-report-DeLrwvob.pdf

Junior doctors slave away for senior doctors so that they can one day become senior doctors with 10x the pay and have junior doctors do most of their work. That’s not going to happen for the average white collar worker.

lol it's the same here in Canada, I'm guessing the US too is not too different

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#156

Post by fl4regun »

zozbot234 wrote: post #37
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people(you, in this case, but this is a very common fallacy) assume that advocating for one thing(idleness) is implicitly advocating against its opposite(work)? We can do both, just not simultaneously.

Because the article's title is "The Importance of Being Idle" not The Importance of doing something that you enjoy"? It's all-too-easy to enjoy being idle, but ultimately it's also a bit mindless, and this deprives us of deeper forms of enjoyment and engagement.

it seems like you are interpreting this as an argument for "not doing work" - but it's not the case. It is more so saying that rest is important too. You ever have the experience that you are bashing your head against something, take a break to stop working on it, and come back refreshed and solve it quickly? Just because something is important, doesn't mean you should do that thing, single-mindedly, at the expense of other things.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#158

Post by baxtr »

artirdx wrote: post #136
lmf4lol wrote: post #35

I really do like the idea and the thinking behind it. I wpuld even argue that modern Europeans are already embracing and practicing much if it. Nearly no one I know in NL and DE works more than 36hrs per week. And we all have a sh”tload of holidays and irregular days off additionally. Need to get kids from school earlier? no prob… Need to spontanously (!) to go the dentist? no prob. (Honest disclaimer: I am talking h…

Europe is not behind because Europeans are working less and taking more vacations. This message that is being loudly broadcasted hides the real problem. Europe is behind because we do not have good leadership. The decisions taken by leadership, no matter what level you look at - local, company, national, supranational - are rarely in the best interest of Europeans. Our markets - housing, rental, labor, capital, pensi…

Re leadership: none of my smart friends wants to be politician. Maybe that’s the root cause.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#159

Post by baxtr »

lmf4lol wrote: post #35

I really do like the idea and the thinking behind it. I wpuld even argue that modern Europeans are already embracing and practicing much if it. Nearly no one I know in NL and DE works more than 36hrs per week. And we all have a sh”tload of holidays and irregular days off additionally. Need to get kids from school earlier? no prob… Need to spontanously (!) to go the dentist? no prob. (Honest disclaimer: I am talking h…

My biggest issue with Europe is not that we work less. I lived in the US for a while, and I can confirm they stay longer in the office but get the same amount done.

My biggest issue is that we have focused for too long on managing (regulating) and redistributing wealth instead of creating new sources of wealth.

We are obsessed with slicing and controlling the pie instead of creating new ones for everybody.

That mindset might cost us the future of our children.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#160

Post by lo_zamoyski »

Otium refers to leisure, not laziness. And leisure in the classical sense is not idling, but rather activity that is not "servile", but rather free. So, for example, contemplation and the study of philosophy in pursuit of wisdom, with no immediate practical or instrumental aim, would be an example of leisure. Indeed, the opposite of otium is negotium, which is to say the negation of leisure. This supports the idea that classically, work was seen as subordinate to leisure and indeed something that was supposed to enable leisure. Today, we rather think of leisure as a recuperation from labor to which we must inevitably return. In Greek, we see something similar: schole meaning "leisure", and its negation ascholia meaning "busyness".

Josef Pieper wrote "Leisure: The Basis of Culture" [0], a book on this subject that people should read. John Paul II also wrote an encyclical, "Laborem Exercens" [1], that discusses, among other things, the purpose and nature of work and responds to both communist and capitalist views on the subject.

[0] https://ballyheaparish.com/resources/Leisure-The-Basis-of-Cu...

[1] https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/d...

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