Live data from Hacker News

Shooting down ideas is not a skill

scottlawsonbc.com

151–160 of 187 posts

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#151
post #97
post #62

Meh, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. You shouldn't listen to every nay-sayer. Sometimes criticism is not convincing and it can be a skill separating out useful criticism from unconvincing criticism. However if someone did X in the past and ran into problem Y, you should probably have an answer to why Y is not a problem for your use case or what you plan to do differently to avoid Y. If you…

> those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it This is a classic meta shutdown - the exact thoughtless criticism the article rails against. Make the future, deal with the relevant mistakes one discovers on one's path. There is an infinite number of mistakes to make. It doesn't help to waste oodles of time learning about mistakes made by others under different contexts and constraints. Avoiding mistakes…

> Make the future

If you are making the future yourself, why do you care what anyone else thinks? Just do what you want. Its your time and effort, nobody else has a claim on it.

In the context of the article, the author wanted other people to be involved with implementing his idea. If you want someone else to help, you are going to have to convince them. Nobody wants to put labour into an idea that is half baked, with no clear answer as to why we would want to do it or how we intend to do it.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#152
If you're pointing out a problem without offering a path through it, that's not contributing.

This is bullshit. Having a solution to a problem has absolutely no bearing on the value of pointing it out. What if someone else who hasn't recognized the problem has a solution? What if no solution exists? What if the problem is complicated and will take hours, days, weeks, months, or years of work to solve? Or if I simply lack the requisite knowledge, intelligence, or skills to solve the problem? Which may not even be technical; as a non-lawyer (or, for that matter, a lawyer in an unrelated practice area), should I refrain from seeking legal advice if I discover a legal problem I'm not personally qualified to solve?

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#153
The author contradicts themself.

> Stop thinking that finding a flaw is a contribution. It's half of a contribution at best. The other half is "and here's how we might solve that." If you're pointing out a problem without offering a path through it, that's not contributing.

So... finding a flaw is "half" of a contribution, but it also isn't a contribution?

Critical thinking is valuable. Yes, it can sometimes be counterproductive, but it can also be steered in a productive direction.

If someone criticizes something, ask them to elaborate. Why couldn't this work? What are the exact roadblocks? Is it based on prior experience, or gut feeling? If it's based on experience, how similar is the current situation to their past experience?

Chances are that after some prodding their criticism turns out to be a non-issue, or far less of an issue than they originally thought. In either case, the discussion itself often steers the group towards a better solution, so bringing up potential concerns, even if they're invalid, is often a good exercise.

The skill is aiming for the right moment to bring it up, having a bit of tact in the delivery, and not burying your head in the sand and being defensive (or offensive). Too often people attach their ideas to their identities, which is the root cause of why design discussions can be frustrating and nonproductive.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#154
^OP if you read this, may I suggest you change the title of the post to "Let 'em cook". Let's assume that shooting down ideas is in fact a skill in the game of work (think prisoner's dilemma). An alternative skill is to play along. "No, because.." becomes "Yes, and..". Improvising off one another is how to play along

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#155
I often mention that I worked for a storied Japanese company. It was the majority of my career.

They used to have a lot of meetings. One of those meetings was called a “Design Review” meeting, or “DR.”

This was a big meeting, involving multiple departments, and usually involved hard-bitten, intelligent, and frequently, curmudgeonly, engineers, scientists, and managers.

It was their job to shoot holes in your proposal.

Making a presentation to a DR was a stressful thing, but it was also a highly effective forge. What came out of the meeting, was a robust, achievable project, with a solid plan, funding, and “on the record” support from all the teams involved. The idea would have real “legs.”

When you ask others to support your idea, you had damn well better expect them to be skeptical, and it’s a mistake to think of their skepticism as opposition. They often want to help you to make it happen, and anticipating problems, is a very important part of that.

https://littlegreenviper.com/problems-and-solutions/

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#156
post #8

With all due respect, if the idea is good, then it will happen. The proposer of the idea needs to nurture it and part of that is defending it. When someone is super optimistic and comes forward with an idea where: - it's actually just a half baked solution for something I already tried to solve 4 years ago - I'm acutely aware of all the spots it will fall - they still think it can work, when it really really honestly…

> With all due respect, if the idea is good, then it will happen.

There are umpteen careerist assholes in corporate environments who reflexively shoot down everyone else's ideas who isn't senior simply to advance their and their friends' ideas to get credit and promotions instead. They refuse to listen honestly and double-down on "their way" with bullshit rationalizations how their ideas are "better". There is no convincing of anything or debating them publicly because it's contrary to their interests.

Politically-motivated adversarial "opposition" to "bad ideas" while silencing better ideas because of non-meritorious factors is distinctly far more troubling than shooting down genuinely worse ideas.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#157
post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

I’m hearing exactly the negative talk that this post is talking about.

You’re doing it absolutely precisely.

Knocking down this persons idea, giving all sorts or rational sounding reasons why this won’t work.

It makes you feel smart.

You contributed nothing.

All you did is dismiss and tear down and smash.

Look how clever you’ve proven yourself to be by stating how much won’t work.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#158
post #8

With all due respect, if the idea is good, then it will happen. The proposer of the idea needs to nurture it and part of that is defending it. When someone is super optimistic and comes forward with an idea where: - it's actually just a half baked solution for something I already tried to solve 4 years ago - I'm acutely aware of all the spots it will fall - they still think it can work, when it really really honestly…

Knocking down ideas often comes with intros like “With all due respect”.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is value in critically evaluating ideas and possible endeavors. On the other hand, demanding an answer to every little pocket of uncertainty creates a huge burden that prevents exploration. It's one thing to be exhaustive in the criticism by examining individual scenarios, evaluating cost benefit in a measurable way, etc. That doesn't seem to be what the author is describing. He's describing critical & low effo…

> He's describing critical & low effort cheap shots. The examples he used included: the plan depends on a different team providing labour and that team is not on board, the business plan for the idea does not make sense. I suppose they are low effort in the sense that they are very basic 101 criticisms, but i wouldn't call them cheap shots. Literally no plan is ever going to work if it involves the labour of others w…

No one should care about devops’s consent when they’re given a work item that comes from someone higher up on the org chart. Their consent is willful employment. Similarly, no one should care about an engineer’s consent when given a work item in a similar context.

If the engineer proposes an implementation the devops team doesn’t like, the devops team should come up with a counter proposal that still fulfills their requirements. And if their counter proposal fulfills the requirements but the engineer objects, then whoever’s at the top of both their branches in the org chart should be making the decision.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#160

This article commits exactly the sin that it claims to warn against. It has obligatory positive statements about the value of critical thinking, surrounded by highly disparaging comments about how people practicing critical thinking in good faith are not adding value. The net effect will be to discourage the healthy development of critical thinking practice. Taking generic potshots at critical thinking is not a skill…

That's fair. The title is provocative and probably overstates my actual position, which as you note is closer to "the way people practice critique in meetings is low value and here's how to do it better". The point about making critical thinkers feel worse is taken too. The people I'm describing in the post aren't the careful, thoughtful critics, but instead the reflexive ones. I could have drawn that line more clear…

I feel better reading your reply.
Post reply on HN