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Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

pwa.gripe

151–160 of 343 posts

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on macOS you can switch to a browser that can do all these things. A company could ask you to use a different browser (not ideal, but if the web app requires a specific API, it's not an unreasonable). Safari is in a very special position because it controls what the web can do on iOS (all browsers on iOS have to use Apple's WebKit engine, they can't add web features). Apple is not just gatekeeping native (through…

I'm not trying to defend Apple's decisions, I'm merely pointing out that the site is showing the feature support that Firefox has or doesn't have on macOS , or whatever other platform someone is using to access the site.

Fair :)

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#152
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even so, conflating "Safari is holding the web platform back by not implementing standardized web features" with "Safari is holding the Google platform back by not implementing non-standard Google features" is kind of disingenuous. You missed the point completely. Apple >forbids any browser engine on iOS other than their own Safari. So you can't just install Chrome on iOS, because when you do you get Safari instead.…

Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance. It's the reason why Google "only" has roughly 75% of the mobile browser market even though it has a 90% market share in desktop. I'm principally against the idea that Apple can prevent users from installing the software they want on their own devices, but we can't deny that it's better for the health of the web. Anyway, if y…

> Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance

"Apple Is Not Defending Browser Engine Choice"

https://infrequently.org/2022/06/apple-is-not-defending-brow...

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#153
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly haven’t tried to design anything complicated that has to run on safari iOS. Safari iOS is a massive piece of shit. I’ve been working on a web game for a while now using canvas and most of my pain comes from making it compatible with safari. So much stuff is broken on safari so you have to find work arounds. Like a simple but annoying one, CSS filters don’t work on canvas so you have to write all those fil…

The argument which has been provided so far about why Safari is crippled is that it does not implement non-standard Chromium-only features. There are other problems with Safari, but they are not found in the page we are discussing.

I compiled a "short" list of why amd how Safari is crippled. Not entirely on topic for the post, but seems appropriate as a reply on this particular comment ;)

https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show...

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#154
post #53

I am curious why Safari in particular is getting a lot of the hate here when firefox supports even less of the features which leads me to believe that the reason many of these features have not been accepted is because they have not been accepted by the larger ecosystem and is just google pushing their own things as standard (Feels like IE days in many ways). That being said, I am not sure why I would actually want m…

The keyword is "intentional".

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#155
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the open webm Sonehow you seem to confuse open web with Chrome-only non-standard APIs

No, because any browser can decide to ship a feature that it thinks is worthwhile. Users can decide which browser they trust to be their User Agent. The distribution model is open. You type a URL, you click a link. No single company in control.

> No, because any browser can decide to ship a feature that it thinks is worthwhile.

Yes, yes they can. They don't get to call it standard or essential. And Chrome-shilling sites like the pwa.gripe and a slew of others don't get to call those features "essential standards of the web".

> No single company in control.

That is literally not how standards work in the browser world by literal agreement of all browser vendors.

We literally lived through this with IE pushing its own non-standard features and calling it a day. Hence the whole "let's reach a consensus, and have several independent implementations of a feature before calling it a standard".

And if "no single company is in control", why then you're so enthusiastically pushing for a Google's full control of the web?

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are forcing me to write a native app instead of just tell my customers to install Chrome to have access to the APIs my product needs (web bluetooth). Why don’t you encourage them to get an Android? What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Chrome after you nag them with dark patterns? > I also do not plan to sell anything through my webapp, which is why Apple wan…

> What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Firefox 100% guaranteed people would. I know this for a fact. You somehow have proof of the negative for some reason. Maybe you can share that. Regardless, just because you are satisfied with iOS as a platform doesn't mean others don't continue to wish for improvements. Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind?

> Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind?

6.

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is also involved in W3C and do I really need to bring up the topics API as Google attempting to use their position to push their agenda as well? We really need to stop putting google on a pedestal as if they are truelly on the side of an open web, like every company they are looking out for their own interests. Which is fine, they are allowed to do this. That doesn't change that many of these are in fact not a…

> many of these are in fact not a standard according to W3C and should not be implemented in any browser until it is. That's not exactly how standards work. A browser (or anyone) comes up with a spec, a browser can ship it (to test the waters in an origin-trial, to gain traction if they believe in it), and the standard (often) comes after the fact: "Working Groups don't gate what browsers ship, nor do they define wha…

> A browser (or anyone) comes up with a spec, a browser can ship it (to test the waters in an origin-trial, to gain traction if they believe in it), and the standard (often) comes after the fact:

1. Google often doesn't bother even with a spec. Or it creates a semblance of a spec, throws it up on a googler's Github account, ships it and advertises it as "emergin standard" on web.dev

I mean, the status of many (if not most) of the APIs that these sites push are literally "napkin scribble, not on any standards track".

2. Google pushes a lot of APIs quickly into production even if there's a very explicit open objection from other browser vendors (any objections are routinely ignored: from general objections to the shape of APIs to whether it can even be implemented outside Chrome).

3. I wouldn't really quote Alex Russel on anything related to standards, as he is responsible (directly or indirectly) for quite a few of those because of his work on Web Components. E.g. Constructable Stylesheets were shipped in Chrome because Google's own lit project needed them. They shipped it in production when the design contained a trivially triggered race condition, it was called out, and Google completely ignored it because "users want it" or something.

4. Browser vendors quite literally agreed not push incompatible only-exists-in-one-browser shit after the browser wars. The whole standards process is designed to minimize this. Well, Chrome is the dominant browser, so of course they shit all over the process, and quite a few people cheer them for that.

Internet Explorer in the 2000s: shits out a bunch of own non-standard crap, people boo them

Chrome in the 2010s-2020s: shits out a bunch of own non-standard crap, people cheer and blame other browsers for not implementing this crap because... Google is "the champion of open web" or some such bullshit.

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of very prominent apps are written using web technologies anyways. Take a look at the continued popularity of React Native (and Flutter as well). And it shows through their laggy interfaces and non-native UI/UX. The people don't like apps built with web tech; developers and LLMs like them because they're a shortcut.

> The people don't like apps built with web tech Then why do most people spend > 90% of their time in a browser (or web-powered app) on desktop?

Irrelevant, we're talking about mobile here.

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#159
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance. It's the reason why Google "only" has roughly 75% of the mobile browser market even though it has a 90% market share in desktop. I'm principally against the idea that Apple can prevent users from installing the software they want on their own devices, but we can't deny that it's better for the health of the web. Anyway, if y…

> Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance "Apple Is Not Defending Browser Engine Choice" https://infrequently.org/2022/06/apple-is-not-defending-brow...

You seem to be conflating my opinion of "iOS's lack of browser choice has the consequence of preventing Chromium from achieving total dominance" with some imaginary other person's opinion of "iOS's lack of browser choice is a benevolent act where good guy Apple valiantly defends the open web". I do, frankly, think that mobile Safari couldn't compete that well in an open market, just like desktop Firefox can't. (Not purely because Firefox is technically inferior, mind you; products don't compete purely on technical merit.)

I think Chromium out-competing every other browser engine is a bad thing.

Re: Apple's intentional crippling of Mobile Safari

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of very prominent apps are written using web technologies anyways. Take a look at the continued popularity of React Native (and Flutter as well). And it shows through their laggy interfaces and non-native UI/UX. The people don't like apps built with web tech; developers and LLMs like them because they're a shortcut.

> The people don't like apps built with web tech Then why do most people spend > 90% of their time in a browser (or web-powered app) on desktop?

No choice.
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