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The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

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Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#151
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely the way to go

Doesn't this go against the credo of not building your own crypto?

Depends on what cryptography you're talking about, the Web Crypto API exists for quite some time, so I'd say that fits in (usually) with "The standard library in JS/CSS is great".

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#153
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely the way to go

Doesn't this go against the credo of not building your own crypto?

No, it means using the crypto module in the standard library instead of importing some third party dependency.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#154
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cargo install (rust) I've down downloads 300 to 700 packages Every C++ app I install in linux requires 250 packages Every python app I install and then pip install requirements uses 150 packages.

A while ago I started a game project in Rust using one of the popular engines. 10GB of build artifacts for the debug target.

You should give it a try to compile other game engines, and compare them, Unreal Engine is a fun one with the source available, take a look how big their artifacts are :)

With that said, there are plenty of small game engines out there, but couple Rust's somewhat slow compile times with the ecosystems preferences for "many crates" over "one big crate", and yeah, even medium-scale game engines like Bevy take a bunch of time and space to compile. But it is a whole game engine after all, maybe not representative of general development in the community.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#155
Everyone trash talking the JS ecosystem without contributing the slightest to the conversation would benefit a lot if they read https://www.artmann.co/articles/30-years-of-br-tags in order to understand the evolution of the language and its tooling.

Nobody argues what we currently have is great and that we shouldn't look to improve it. Reducing it to "JS developers bad" is an embarrassing statement and just shows ignorance, not only of the topic at hand, but of an engineering mindset in general.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#157

I really think writing dependency-free JavaScript is the way to go nowadays. The standard library in JS/CSS is great. So are static analysis (TypeScript can check JSDoc), imports (ES modules), UI (web components), etc. People keep telling me the approach I am taking won't scale or will be hard to maintain, yet my experience has been that things stay simple and easy to change in a way I haven't experienced in dependen…

I've been doing JS for nearly a couple decades now (both front and back) and I landed on the same approach a few years ago. Pick your absolutely minimal set of dependencies, and then just make what you need for everything else. Maybe counter-intuitive to some, I feel like I'm more comfortable maintaining a larger codebase with less people.

What's more, given the tools we have today, it fits really well with agentic engineering. It's even easier to create and understand a homegrown version of a dependency you may have used before.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#158
post #27

I think on the first point, we have to start calling out authors of packages which (IMO) have built out these deptrees to their own subpackages basically entirely for the purpose of getting high download counts on their github account Like seriously... at 50 million downloads maybe you should vendor some shit in. Packages like this which have _7 lines of code_ should not exist! The metadata of the lockfile is bigger…

> entirely for the purpose of getting high download counts on their github account Is this an ego thing or are people actually reaping benefits from this? Anthropic recently offered free Claude to open source maintainers of repositories with over X stars or over Y downloads on npm. I suppose it is entirely possible that these download statistics translate into financial gain...

Yes, there's definitely a financial gain aspect here. Tidelift provides $50/month for each of these packages. https://tidelift.com/lifter/search/npm/has-symbols

The incentives are pretty clear: more packages, more money.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#159

Anyone want to tell him programming languages don’t matter anymore?

What do you use to build programs then? Or maybe you're not a software developer, then maybe I understand not fully knowing how a program gets built, but otherwise, languages will be needed for as long as we need programs.

Re: The three pillars of JavaScript bloat

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is different as there is no runtime.

I'm not very familiar with rust but I'm pretty sure it has a runtime. Even C has a runtime. Unless you're talking about an "environment" eg Node or the like

Indeed Rust has a runtime, I'm not sure why the whole "Rust has no runtime" comes from, I keep seeing it repeated from time to time, but can't find the origin of this, I don't think it's ever been true?
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