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Java 26 is here

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Re: Java 26 is here

#151

Post by owlstuffing »

lucketone wrote: post #65
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

> for not embracing religion of OOP and FactoryFactory Not the case today. Of course, crappy code (or questionable patterns) can be found in all languages, and java community had made some innovations in the area early on, but today we have a different picture. FactoryFactory has gone mostly extinct, the most likely place to see it is “dailywtf.com”. We now know that we prefer composition over inheritance, we have st…

> We now know that we prefer composition over inheritance

When people say "composition over inheritance" in Java discussions, they usually mean the trivial modeling rule: prefer has-a over is-a.

But that’s not what composition is really about.

The deeper idea is interface composition -- building types by composing multiple behavioral contracts behind a single cohesive surface.

Java provides inheritance and interfaces, but it doesn’t provide first-class delegation or traits. So most developers never really practice interface composition. They either subclass, or they wire objects together and expose the wiring.

The slogan survived. The concept mostly didn’t.

The manifold project, for example, experiments with language-level delegation to make interface composition practical with Java.

https://github.com/manifold-systems/manifold/blob/master/man...

Re: Java 26 is here

#152

Post by recursive »

beachy wrote: post #110
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

I wonder if at we are standing looking at the smoking field of programming languages created over the last 50 years and gazing at the final survivors, of which Java is definitely one. Why would anyone create a new language now? The existing ones are "good enough", and without a body of examples for LLMs to train on, a new language has little chance getting traction. I learned IBM /360 assembler when I started in comp…

Why would anyone play chess in 2010? The drawbridge is rapidly being raised on human competitiveness.

The vast majority of programming languages ever created never aspired to win and I don't think that's going to change now.

Re: Java 26 is here

#153

Post by owlstuffing »

HendrikHensen wrote: post #51
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"? I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).

Go can't compete with Java bc it's not in the same category as Java.

- Java is a high-level, multi-paradigm programming language

- Go is designed as a systems language to supersede C projects at Google

Now Go identifies as a general purpose language that competes with Java? It's a free country, I guess.

Re: Java 26 is here

#154

Post by owlstuffing »

HendrikHensen wrote: post #51
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"? I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).

"industry purposes" likely equates to "enterprise software development." And that assertion is 100% correct.

Re: Java 26 is here

#155

Post by winrid »

hackemmy wrote: post #94
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

I write TypeScript daily and honestly it is not about being scared of Java. The ecosystem just makes more sense if you are already building for the web. You write your frontend in JS/TS, your backend in the same language, your build tools understand it natively, and you share types between client and server. That is a hard thing to replicate in Java even if the language itself is technically better in some areas. The…

What if you have a mobile app? Rest APIs? The argument doesn't work. Every backend language has ways to generate specs/types/clients from the APIs code.

Re: Java 26 is here

#156

Post by Ternari »

deepsun wrote: post #122
zadikian wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of virtual threads was its biggest remaining problem because this made the common ways of doing cooperative multitasking very ugly. Go's big thing was having that from the start. Maybe now that Java has it too, it's set? Though JS will still have the least boilerplate because of the way it handles types.

IMO, Kotlin coroutines are better of Go's goroutines, although they are a little different beasts to compare honestly (apples and oranges). Go inits goroutines on stack, but min size is 4KiB, so it's not trivial to grow them. Also you need to watch over and destruct goroutines manually to prevent memory leaks (using var wg = sync.WaitGroup defer wg.wait() wg.Add(1) go func() { defer wg.Done() } ) And create a separat…

>you need to watch over and destruct goroutines manually to prevent memory leaks

No, you don’t. Any stack-allocated resources are freed when the function returns. WaitGroup is just there for synchronization.

Re: Java 26 is here

#157

Post by chii »

lucketone wrote: post #65
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

> for not embracing religion of OOP and FactoryFactory Not the case today. Of course, crappy code (or questionable patterns) can be found in all languages, and java community had made some innovations in the area early on, but today we have a different picture. FactoryFactory has gone mostly extinct, the most likely place to see it is “dailywtf.com”. We now know that we prefer composition over inheritance, we have st…

> FactoryFactory has gone mostly extinct

it really depends on your project, and what framework(s) and libraries you choose to use.

Java still has a tonne of legacy projects using old(er) frameworks that rely on such patterns - spring has some old versions which is like that, and i am certain plenty of java projects are retaining those old versions due to lack of desire to upgrade.

If you're starting a greenfield development in java, you surely would not befall into that factoryfactory pattern (unless you're just copy/pasting old projects around...). But i imagine there's way fewer greenfield projects compared to older projects requiring maintenance.

Re: Java 26 is here

#158

Post by rossjudson »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #97
gf000 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They trade blows, and have different philosophies (complex runtime, simpler language vs the reverse). E.g. on the GC side Java is ahead of any other platform, especially with the low-latency ZGC garbage collector.

The counterpoint is that Java has so much SOTA GC work precisely because the language makes writing efficient code that doesn't heavily tax the GC basically impossible.

Tell me you haven't looked at Java in 15 years without telling me.

Given that the vast majority of non-GC language code does a terrible job of managing memory, it's not difficult at all for the JVM to win out on efficient, reliable systems.

Re: Java 26 is here

#159

Post by chrisweekly »

mands wrote: post #58
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss. There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI ( https://tamboui.dev/ ) for terminal UIs, and more. Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resourc…

A friend and former colleague was agog about Quarkus and it does look pretty compelling.

Re: Java 26 is here

#160

Post by chii »

materielle wrote: post #147
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

As a Go developer, this is right on the mark. I’ve been hearing good things about Java lately, so I decided to check out the language for the first time since 2012 or something. And I was impressed! The language maintainers have added so many great features while maintaining backwards compatibility. And slowly but surely improved the JVM and garbage collection. So after toying around for a bit, I decided to write som…

> I will never invest even 5 minutes in learning that horrible Spring framework

well there's your problem - why are you using spring for a personal project, when there's so many other simpler, lighter weight frameworks around?

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