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Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

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Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#151

Post by [deleted] »

gruez wrote: post #129
heisenzombie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia it's the board of directors who are liable. They can be liable if they personally direct the company to do something illegal (obviously?) but there is also a positive obligation to exercise due diligence. This covers (but is not limited to) workplace safety and safety of customers and the public. Directors can be personally liable for breaches of this duty and the penalties extend to possible imprisonmen…

>but there is also a positive obligation to exercise due diligence. This covers (but is not limited to) workplace safety and safety of customers and the public. Is there any indication this requirement was breached for this case? I'm all for jailing executives of companies where they specifically failed to enact safety measures, or even didn't care enough about safety, but in this case it's simply a case of a edge th…

[deleted]

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#152

Post by [deleted] »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #144
gruez wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But reasonable punishment discourages bad behavior. And software engineers have a habit of ignoring the implications of a defective design. I think apocalyptic fines applied to the companies creating the systems for automated cars would also create the correct incentives, but I find that to be less likely than imprisonment. This just feels like the "we should make the justice system harsher to deter crime" argument…

A lot of people can't really get over the idea that they want to be the boss of everything.

[deleted]

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#153

Post by jrnichols »

wongarsu wrote: post #84
orliesaurus wrote: post #40

Someone on Austin's subreddit said the following and I think it's the correct take/lens: > I might get downvoted for expressing my feelings but whatever. I hate seeing my coworkers being ridiculed for simply doing the right thing and moving on with their work. I’ve been abused and called an idiot on here for stating our reality. I’m a paramedic. We will NOT attempt to move or hit a vehicle, person, or object to go to…

He makes an excellent job describing all lots of systematic issues here - a collision causes an investigation that is "not worth it" - even in this case that was "high profile, tragic, and absolutely dire" - vehicles, objects, or people get in paramedics' or EMTs' way on a daily basis, apparently without consequences - EMTs are subject to high levels of verbal abuse and assaults, apparently without consequences - yet…

As another paramedic that has worked in Texas, they are absolutely correct.

What we lack in EMS is the same qualified immunity that law enforcement continues to have.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#154

Post by porridgeraisin »

tapoxi wrote: post #22
mxfh wrote: post #8

Cars block the street all the time, there is ample place to pass the waymo car on the left in the opposing lane, yet those SUV driving humans don't care to move out of the way either, and police just blocks the maneuver area too. That silver car in the front could also just pass in front and make space. Situational awareness has room to be improved for a lot of entities in this short video. Nueces Street is 3 and hal…

You can arrest a driver for not making space for an emergency vehicle. Who do we arrest here?

This is the key. Personally I think you just have to something similar to an auditor or whatever. Demand that if a self driving taxi operates in your city, they assign one legally responsible person per $major-division-of-city. All accidents in that region are due to that guy.

Naturally, this will incentivise them to improve the system that deals with edge cases in their ML model, and better yet you'll have the legally responsible guy shit himself and directly manage remote drivers for his location himself. Adds another layer of accountability.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#155

Post by pinnochio »

gruez wrote: post #129
heisenzombie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia it's the board of directors who are liable. They can be liable if they personally direct the company to do something illegal (obviously?) but there is also a positive obligation to exercise due diligence. This covers (but is not limited to) workplace safety and safety of customers and the public. Directors can be personally liable for breaches of this duty and the penalties extend to possible imprisonmen…

>but there is also a positive obligation to exercise due diligence. This covers (but is not limited to) workplace safety and safety of customers and the public. Is there any indication this requirement was breached for this case? I'm all for jailing executives of companies where they specifically failed to enact safety measures, or even didn't care enough about safety, but in this case it's simply a case of a edge th…

> in this case it's simply a case of a edge they didn't test. It's not for lack of trying either.

Agreed. And because responsible driving is almost all edge cases, they shouldn't be held liable for any of them as long as they tried.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#156

Post by snickerbockers »

wongarsu wrote: post #84
orliesaurus wrote: post #40

Someone on Austin's subreddit said the following and I think it's the correct take/lens: > I might get downvoted for expressing my feelings but whatever. I hate seeing my coworkers being ridiculed for simply doing the right thing and moving on with their work. I’ve been abused and called an idiot on here for stating our reality. I’m a paramedic. We will NOT attempt to move or hit a vehicle, person, or object to go to…

He makes an excellent job describing all lots of systematic issues here - a collision causes an investigation that is "not worth it" - even in this case that was "high profile, tragic, and absolutely dire" - vehicles, objects, or people get in paramedics' or EMTs' way on a daily basis, apparently without consequences - EMTs are subject to high levels of verbal abuse and assaults, apparently without consequences - yet…

I think the most important problem here is that this is an ambulance not a monster truck. It never ceases to amaze me how people on this site will always insist that the onus should be on society to deal the fallout from silicon valley's poorly-tested and poorly-designed bullshit. In a truly just world we'd be able to charge Google's leadership as an accessory to homicide for this.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#157

Post by happytoexplain »

mxfh wrote: post #8

Cars block the street all the time, there is ample place to pass the waymo car on the left in the opposing lane, yet those SUV driving humans don't care to move out of the way either, and police just blocks the maneuver area too. That silver car in the front could also just pass in front and make space. Situational awareness has room to be improved for a lot of entities in this short video. Nueces Street is 3 and hal…

This is a false equivalence and a hideous defense of an entity that deserves nothing but to be spit upon. There is absolutely nothing calling upon you to take this path.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#158

Post by steve-atx-7600 »

mxfh wrote: post #8

Cars block the street all the time, there is ample place to pass the waymo car on the left in the opposing lane, yet those SUV driving humans don't care to move out of the way either, and police just blocks the maneuver area too. That silver car in the front could also just pass in front and make space. Situational awareness has room to be improved for a lot of entities in this short video. Nueces Street is 3 and hal…

The ambulance driver rightly hesitates because he can’t know how the wamyo will behave. The wanyo is acting suss as hell.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#159

Post by FireBeyond »

fennecbutt wrote: post #113
tokyobreakfast wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is ample place to pass This is the same excuse a Prius driver would give whilst refusing to abdicate the HOV lane for an ambulance and yes I've sadly seen this scenario play out. Multiple times, in fact. Prius driver seems oddly specific but it always is.

Eh I've seen more SUV/big car drivers act like this than small car drivers, but then I live in the UK. A friend who lived in New York for a bit would never live there again and says driving there was an absolute nightmare; everyone's out for themselves. And you can see it in multiple "drivers react to an ambulance in different countries videos", with America the ambulance is always blocked and going slowly. Compare t…

Agreed, tbh.

In Seattle, the most ritualistic abusers of the HOV lanes are large SUVs and trucks with only a driver in them.

Also, ex-paramedic, three cases fairly similar, but the one I found most egregious, was us going lights and sirens on I-5 heading to Harborview, heavy heavy rain. Traffic on the freeway slowly but steadily goes right. Cue a single-occupant Escalade accelerate up, overtake us on the inside and pull into the HOV lane to take advantage of the cleared freeway in front of us.

For bonus irony points, licence plate holder: "Don't drive faster than your angels can fly", lady, you just overtook an ambulance in emergency mode.

We actually called that one in. Some satisfaction as we rolled by her a few minutes later, pulled over with a state trooper having lit her up, who points at us and shakes his head at her.

Re: Waymo blocking ambulance during deadly Austin shooting

#160

Post by bluefirebrand »

gruez wrote: post #135
grayhatter wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really need someone sitting in jail to satisfy your justice boner? Literally, and intentionally avoiding any attempt to examine the implications? No probably not. But reasonable punishment discourages bad behavior. And software engineers have a habit of ignoring the implications of a defective design. I think apocalyptic fines applied to the companies creating the systems for automated cars would also create…

>But reasonable punishment discourages bad behavior. And software engineers have a habit of ignoring the implications of a defective design. I think apocalyptic fines applied to the companies creating the systems for automated cars would also create the correct incentives, but I find that to be less likely than imprisonment. This just feels like the "we should make the justice system harsher to deter crime" argument…

If a civil engineer designs a bridge that collapsed they can be held accountable for negligence in their duties

Why not software engineers too? Why are we so special that we can never be held accountable for the damage our lack of standards causes?

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