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Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

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Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My problem is that if a measurement is done on the other particle, long before any message from me could possibly have got there, then that measurement and the effects it has on its local environment and the effects they have are all also dependent on my measurement. Imagine that your friend Joe writes the same word on two pieces of paper, puts them in envelopes and hands one envelope to you and mails the other env…

That's a hidden variable theory.

No, it's an analogy, not a theory. There are no hidden variables in the Many Worlds Interpretation, but it will appear to us as if there are.

The Bohm Interpretation is the experimentally indistinguishable dual of MWI that proposes hidden variables rather than the absence of wave collapse.

Despite the hidden variables in the Bohm Interpretation, there is nothing wrong with it, modulo Occam's razor.

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#152
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be specific. What experiment do you have in mind that could distinguish between interpretations? Note that if the "experiment" involves dying to see what's on the other side then it doesn't exactly make it seem less like a religion.

Well, all the theories of quantum mechanics that rely on waveform collapse all predict that waveform collapse happens, while those that don't don't. Observing that larger and larger objects still have tinier and tinier but still existent quantum effects is evidence against collapse. And if you can demonstrate quantum effects in people, then you've pretty much ruled out the Copenhagen and von Neumann interpretations.…

So you're saying, if Quantum Mechanics turns out to correctly describe larger and larger systems--in other words, unless we discover some new physics which makes QM break at a certain scale--then your pet interpretation will turn out to be true?

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#153
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be specific. What experiment do you have in mind that could distinguish between interpretations? Note that if the "experiment" involves dying to see what's on the other side then it doesn't exactly make it seem less like a religion.

You might as well say that the Bohm interpretation is "like religion" then, rather than saying that the MWI is. If your assertion is that we might never know which is true, the Many Worlds Interpretation or the Bohm Interpretation, then you might be right. But, if it comes down to these two, most scientists are going to go with the Many Worlds Interpretation by Occam's razor. There are many other theories that we rej…

You might as well say that the Bohm interpretation is "like religion" then, rather than saying that the MWI is.

I might except MWI clearly has more True Believers.

If your assertion is that we might never know which is true

My assertion is that since all interpretations lead to the same exact predictions for every imaginable experiment, it doesn't make sense to say that in any meaningful way one interpretation is true and the others aren't. You might as well be arguing whether the electromagnetic field is weaved by tiny angels out of their hair or not.

The Copenhagen interpretation is the closest to "no interpretation" in that it's the most direct way of translating the math into actual predictions.

Quoting the guy who said you shouldn't multiply entities without necessity, to justify the introduction of infinitely many parallel worlds, is an interesting rhetorical maneuver.

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hidden variable theory.

No, it's an analogy , not a theory. There are no hidden variables in the Many Worlds Interpretation, but it will appear to us as if there are. The Bohm Interpretation is the experimentally indistinguishable dual of MWI that proposes hidden variables rather than the absence of wave collapse. Despite the hidden variables in the Bohm Interpretation, there is nothing wrong with it, modulo Occam's razor.

Sure, I used the word 'theory' incorrectly, I should have said 'explanation'.

As I understand it, hidden variables are fine if you're happy to throw away locality, which is exactly what Bohm interpretation does and exactly what we're talking about here.

Since your analogy is purportedly showing me how MWI is local, showing me that something that is significantly different (i.e. is a hidden variable explanation) is also local doesn't help a lot.

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#155
post #89
post #66

Can someone provide or point to a layman's definition of "realism" in quantum mechanics? Recently on a call-in podcast I listen to, a caller has claimed that the following article shows that a) realism has been disproven and b) that proves we are all in a computer simulation: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2007/apr/20/quantum... >Now physicists from Austria claim to have performed an experiment that rules o…

Philosophically (as written by Einstein, Heisenberg, etc.) there are three assumptions about the world - of which one is broken by the quantum world. We do not know which one. Depending on your interpretation of the Schrodinger equation you can interpret the breaking in any of the three ways. This article says its realism - but as far as I know there is no way to prove its realism and not one of the others. One of th…

Thanks for the explanation. I was still confused about how "things actually are material and unchanging" led to "reality does not exist when we are not observing it."

You pointed me in the right direction though and I'm convinced that the term is being abused by the caller:

>Realism in the sense used by physicists does not equate to realism in metaphysics. The latter is the claim that the world is in some sense mind-independent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_realism#Local_realism

http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0607057v2.pdf

If papers are being written about how "local realism" should be banned from scientific discussion, I'm fairly certain it isn't appropriate for laymen to bandy about the term and then make wild ass philosophical assertions based on it.

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#156
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, all the theories of quantum mechanics that rely on waveform collapse all predict that waveform collapse happens, while those that don't don't. Observing that larger and larger objects still have tinier and tinier but still existent quantum effects is evidence against collapse. And if you can demonstrate quantum effects in people, then you've pretty much ruled out the Copenhagen and von Neumann interpretations.…

So you're saying, if Quantum Mechanics turns out to correctly describe larger and larger systems--in other words, unless we discover some new physics which makes QM break at a certain scale--then your pet interpretation will turn out to be true?

No, I'm saying that if Schrödinger's equation describes larger and larger systems that means that Quantum Mechanics is Schrödinger's equation rather than being Schrödinger's equation plus waveform collapse. Maybe you could try reading through the Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics Wikipedia page[1] to get a better sense of the issues being talked about here? Whether or not waveforms collapse at a certain scale is precisely the most important issue of disagreement here, and it actually is subject to experiment in theory. And experiment could probably even distinguish between the various families of waveform collapse too. Not that this will distinguish between all interpretations, but it would at least cut the possible number in half.

Remember, waveform collapse or "some new physics which makes QM break at a certain scale" was actually the assumption of the people who started quantum physics, and the default assumption of popular writing including the article we're discussing. It wasn't until much later that Everett proposed that it might be an unnecessary hypothesis like Maxwell's aether.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mech...

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#157
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you annihilate one of the particles, the other particle continues "unaffected". Whatever you do to one of the particles, the other particle continues "unaffected". Quantum mechanic is a little more complex, so it is difficult to explain what "unaffected" really means. It's clearer with an example. Let's suppose that you and I have each one a particle that is a half of an entanglement particle pair: * If you do…

Hmm, this somehow defies common sense (but of course, its quantim mechanics, so thats a given!). You are saying that, if theres an entangled pair, they cannot be used to transmit information that couldn't be otherwise transmitted via "conventional" means. However, if you performed the measurements, and then compared notes you will find that somehow, it looks like the measurements were "synced"? How does it work this…

> How does it work this way? That is, how could it be the case that those measurements can be related, but you can't use that relation to transmit information?

In a simple example, both people measure for example the spin in the x axis of the particles that travel in the z direction. Each has a 50% probability of obtaining "up" and a 50% probability of obtaining "down". But in every case the get the opposite result, so each one has a random number generator that is synchronized with the other. But each one alone has only a random number generator.

Lest suppose that someone try to use that to create an intergalactic first person shooter for two players :). Using the "synchronized random number generator" it is possible to make the bots move exactly in the same way in both players computers, but they are only "synchronized random number generator" so it's impossible for one player to know what the other player has done (unless they wait until the information arrive in a conventional way, with a speed But this is only part of the story, because this process can be simulated with a central "random number generator" that sends the signals to both players.

The strange property is that if both players "magically" decide begin to measure the spin in the y direction, they will have the same 50% chances and always get the opposite result. Another possibility that avoids magic is that one of the players continues measure spin in the x direction and the other players begins to measure the spin y direction. Now each one has a "random number generator" that is independent of the other "random number generator", so each player has no clue about what the other player result. It's not useful for a IFPS, but it's useful as a physic experiment. (And one of the problems with quantum mechanics is that you can't measure the spin in both directions, you must choose one. It's a little more complicate, but I don't' want to enter into the technical details.)

But this is only part of the story, because this process can be simulated with a central "random number generator" that generate two random numbers and then sends the signals to both players, one for the x direction and one for the y direction. This is a simplification of the "hidden variable theory", that says that the particles "know" in advance what to do if they are measured in for the x direction and in the y direction, in spite of that you can't measure both.

In the experiments the idea is that the measurements/player decide which direction to use while the particles are flying, so they don't have enough time to communicate (at Really, to do the measurements it's possible to choose not only the x or y axe, but any direction in that plane. So for every direction each player has a "random number generator", but they are not independent. If one measure in the x direction and the other at 45º the probability that the results agree in some number in between 50% and 100%. The 50% is for orthogonal directions that have independent results, the 100% is for the same direction that has ever the same/opposite result, and for the other angles there is a formula to calculate the value. To simulate this you need a lot of hidden variables, or at least a few an a formula to calculate the result for each direction, or any other variation of this idea. There are many possible proposal, some are more simple and some are more complicated, so the idea is to put all of them in the "hidden variable theory" bag and forget for a moment the details. The problem is that Bell proved that for any "hidden (local) variable theory" some inequality holds. This inequality ignores the details of the specific theory, so it's not possible to invent a more complex "hidden (local) variable theory" that breaks the inequality. When the same calculations are evaluated using the quantum mechanics the result is a value that for some angles is allowed by the Bell inequality but for other angles the value is forbidden by the Bell inequality. So there is a different prediction of some measurement using the quantum mechanics and any "hidden (local) variable theory".

And it is possible to do this experiment and calculate a value for every angle. And the result is that for the problematic angles the result agrees with the quantum mechanics predictions and don't holds the inequality that is predicted from any "hidden (local) variable theory". So we must eliminate all the "hidden (local) variable theory". (For the non problematic angles the result agrees with the quantum mechanics predictions again, and holds the inequality as expected because they are not problematic).

More details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bells_theorem

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> short story about someone doing this and discovering that it was the galactic equivalent of 'shortwave' radio and have the alien equivalent of the FCC come out to the planet to arrest the scientists for transmitting without a license "Fine Structure" -- bits of a soft-SF story you can read online http://qntm.org/structure http://everything2.com/?node=fine+structure It's of varying quality, I think people usually li…

Thank you. I had never seen "Fine Structure" and enjoyed it. It's of varying quality It's worth a lot more than what I paid for it. ;)

Hehe, you got me curious to read Oul's Egg.. quite interesting, but kind of bothered by the ending...

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#159
post #143

It can be local in many-worlds. http://lesswrong.com/lw/q1/bells_theorem_no_epr_reality/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/q2/spooky_action_at_a_distance_the_n...

Looks like you're a firm believer, so I ask, is MWI by your definition falsifiable? Do any experiments past, current or future purport to test predictions made from MWI? While MWI may make sense in a universal reading of QM, I'm not sure we can simply extrapolate this onto the macro level, despite it's pragmatic successes over the last century. IMHO QM itself, still feels like a temporary hack (shim), when compared a…

http://lesswrong.com/lw/q4/decoherence_is_falsifiable_and_te...

Re: Quantum entanglement shows that reality can't be local

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's an analogy , not a theory. There are no hidden variables in the Many Worlds Interpretation, but it will appear to us as if there are. The Bohm Interpretation is the experimentally indistinguishable dual of MWI that proposes hidden variables rather than the absence of wave collapse. Despite the hidden variables in the Bohm Interpretation, there is nothing wrong with it, modulo Occam's razor.

Sure, I used the word 'theory' incorrectly, I should have said 'explanation'. As I understand it, hidden variables are fine if you're happy to throw away locality, which is exactly what Bohm interpretation does and exactly what we're talking about here. Since your analogy is purportedly showing me how MWI is local, showing me that something that is significantly different (i.e. is a hidden variable explanation) is al…

Here's a more thorough explanation:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/

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