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Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

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Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#151

Post by ForHackernews »

kjksf wrote: post #106
smspillaz wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do meaningfully try to address this. Almost every country in the west is tightening it's system. In the UK claiming ILR will take a significantly longer period of lawful residence, and a shorter time will require you to meet a high income threshold. It is nearly impossible to get PR in Canada now unless you are fluent in both English and French and have a PhD or several years of canadian work experience. The…

The only meaningful action would be to stop well fare for immigrants. You don't work, you don't have money. Madness is for UK government to tax UK citizens to pay for housing and food of immigrants. Incentives drive behavior. If you're African and see you can live for free in England, of course you'll try to get that deal. And in age of social media, they know. Denmark did that and saw dramatic drop in number of peop…

I might take your opinions more seriously if you integrated and learned to write English properly. It's "welfare", for starters. Line breaks go between paragraphs, not after every sentence. If you're going to come here sucking up resources on a Western message board, you have to assimilate.

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#152

Post by demosito666 »

blfr wrote: post #59

It is constantly shocking to me that no matter how many times and where in the west people vote against immigration (which is what most of these votes boil down to), they can never get it. It's truly a crown in the gutter moment where you can be completely off-the-wall nuts (vide AfD) and, if you're just willing to campaign on anti-immigration, your ranks will instantly swell. Yet the establishment is somehow complet…

In countries with functional democracy it actually is happening. In Sweden anti-immigration sentiments allowed for right party to gain significant share in the parliament and now immigration rules are changing and immigration rates are lowering. One may argue that this is 20 years too late, but in the past the majority of the population public actually didn’t actively oppose the policies. They do now, the situation is changing. No swexit required.

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#153

Post by jgb1984 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #70
blfr wrote: post #59

It is constantly shocking to me that no matter how many times and where in the west people vote against immigration (which is what most of these votes boil down to), they can never get it. It's truly a crown in the gutter moment where you can be completely off-the-wall nuts (vide AfD) and, if you're just willing to campaign on anti-immigration, your ranks will instantly swell. Yet the establishment is somehow complet…

I assume it's economically catastrophic to cut off the supply of young, low-wage labour and that's why no responsible government will ever do it.

Numbers from Denmark and the Netherlands (the only two European countries where it's allowed to gather such statistics) show that non-EU immigration is a net cost to the society (and economy). In the Netherlands a non-western asylumseeker comes to about 800.000 € to 1.300.000 € net cost to the state over the persons lifetime, depending on what you take into account. And that's purely the financial part, we're not even talking about the increase in crime and the ghettoisation of most western European cities. It's a tragedy, for everyone involved (because most 2nd and 3rd generation non-western immigrants still live a life of poverty in Belgium/Netherlands).

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#154

Post by microtonal »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #51
preommr wrote: post #38

Regardless of the value of Brexit, people tend to be biased against things that have happened or are around them when things are bad. Like when people are against a president if the economy isn't doing well, regardless of if the alternative candidate would've been better. This also isn't an issue thats being campaigned on. If there was another vote to join the EU, and people got flooded with anti-eu messaging specifi…

The EU always has been a scapegoat for incompetent politicians. Now the EU is out of the picture, there’s no-one left to blame. And we can clearly see that the EU, for all its faults, is a very beneficial institution for all involved.

The EU always has been a scapegoat for incompetent politicians.

You also see this in countries still in the EU and it will happen as long as we will not have true integration, it is always easier to blame the EU for your own failings, since it is harder for the EU to fend for itself in national politics.

One recent example in my country is nitrogen deposition. Long ago, countries have committed to keeping certain nature reserves in good health (or improving them when necessary). Then many subsequent governments always chose the side of the farmers at the detriment of nature. Now many reserves' soil quality is in a terrible state and the courts have told the government to stop and fix the problem. Then we got a bunch of right-wing populist countries that have wasted many more years by blaming the EU and questioning scientific methods for measuring deposits - while it has been abundantly for a long time what actually needs to be done, buy out farmers.

At any rate, this constant undermining and blaming of the EU has the effect you'd expect it to - it destroys trust in the EU. Ironically, the saving grace now seems to be the agressor and the lost ally. More people realize that we can't act in an increasingly hostile world as small and mid-sized countries.

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#155

Post by threatofrain »

davidguetta wrote: post #82
breakyerself wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the establishment knows how integral to the economy immigration is and because it isn't that easy to stop even for an island. Unless you want to shut down tourism and trade.

Stopping is a long way from "actively encouraging it and calling racist everybody who disagree" (and actively hide horrific stuff like the rape gangs).

I think the problem is creating an effective anti-immigration movement which does not have racial feelings running through the movement. It might just be impossible to do. When you wish to corral the votes you may have to accept the feelings of those who help you win.

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#156

Post by JCattheATM »

satori99 wrote: post #87
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the cohort most likely to vote well when they do Eh, this is far from a given. Mao's Red Guards were passionate idiots. And America's young men are in thrall of Clavicular. The most powerful empires in history have had large rebublics at their cores for good reason. The wisdom of a crowd greatly increases with its diversity.

As an Australian, I am so grateful for compulsory voting.

It's pretty anti-democratic honestly, but expected from a nanny state like AU. Then again they don't really enforce it - what's a $20 fine anyway?

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#157

Post by JCattheATM »

saubeidl wrote: post #41
raincole wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read it as "when they get older" if that makes you feel better. It's known that people are more likely to switch from liberal to conservatives when they get older than vice versa.

One could also say people get more conservative as their mental acuity decreases with age , but that too, would be an uncalled for judgement and projection of one's own political views.

That's not a judgement or projection, but hard correlation linked with causation.

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#158

Post by ForHackernews »

kjksf wrote: post #120
breakyerself wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. Just like wanting to leave the EU was self destructive cutting off immigration is as well. The US is in the process of trying to hobble its own economy right now.

Poland has almost zero immigration and is one of the fastest European economies. Do explain the miracle of Poland. What kind of economics work for Poland but couldn't possibly work for England. Do explain how 41 thousand unskilled young man landing in UK shores via small boats are good for economy. Majority of them do no work, not even the low skill jobs. They cost UK citizens a lot of money because UK gov took upon…

Poland was an ramshackle post-communist economy that has grown rapidly (with the help of generous EU handouts) over the past three decades to catch up to the Western side of the Iron Curtain.

If Brits are willing to impoverish themselves to [0] https://www.macrotrends.net/datasets/global-metrics/countrie...

Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#159

Post by roysting »

hermanzegerman wrote: post #60
roysting wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you believe you have lost freedom of movement, I’ve met British people all over Europe. If I can meet a Russian living in Switzerland in Amsterdam and a British couple that took the ferry from the island, why are you not free to “move”? On a related note; do you enjoy what America is right now? Because centralizing power and handing your country’s (American states are/were/should be essentially countries)…

That is one of the most idiotic things I have read. Obviously it's not impossible to travel for them anymore, but freedom of movement referred clearly to the rights of free movement between EU States as a citizen for Work, Education, Travel and Business Obviously they can still travel to Europe, but they will need an ETIAS Visa Waiver in the future, instead of just going, they can't move for work and studying just as…

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Re: Over 80% of 16 to 24-year-olds would vote to rejoin the EU

#160

Post by spwa4 »

JCattheATM wrote: post #101
blfr wrote: post #59

It is constantly shocking to me that no matter how many times and where in the west people vote against immigration (which is what most of these votes boil down to), they can never get it. It's truly a crown in the gutter moment where you can be completely off-the-wall nuts (vide AfD) and, if you're just willing to campaign on anti-immigration, your ranks will instantly swell. Yet the establishment is somehow complet…

The real problem is the uneducated masses who buy the propaganda that immigration is the issue they should care about the most.

The real problem is that for >10 years the a green-left coalition was in power, at least in most of Europe and immigration was greatly encouraged because it would provide clear economic benefits for everyone.

There's many stories, but let's call this the average story: "Immigration brings growth, growth advances everyone".

Well, it doesn't, at least not at the moment. Oops.

Now we can argue why, of course, but a certain amount of backlash was to be expected. It was clear for 20 years or more exactly what would happen when "the alternative" to the prevailing "left+green" coalitions gains power. To an extent I don't understand how anybody can claim to be surprised.

Also, in a democracy I would think that arguing that "the uneducated masses" are wrong is a quick path to irrelevancy. That, by the way, is exactly how we want the system to work. The system needs to work well for the uneducated masses. Figure it out, or accept that the other guys are going to win the election.

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