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East Germany balloon escape

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Re: East Germany balloon escape

#151

Post by defrost »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #145
defrost wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. That rather rules out what happens in, say, the USofA, where entrenched party politics limits the choice of the wider population to those few candidates that are backed. > Some people reapply that definition to the word "populism". No, it's real democracy to elect the people's choice. Populism isn't democracy, democrac…

Agreed on all points. The USofA is very far from true democracy. For starters, the NGO networks and a lot of unelected bureaucracy are the real government authority by quite a margin -- all of whom are directly opposed to and working against the US Constitution.

> NGO networks and a lot of unelected bureaucracy are the real government authority by quite a margin

In a well structured government for the people by the people such groups are as essential as military, as law enforcement, as health professionals, etc.

Politicians debate policy and advocate on behalf of representatives.

Unelected civil servants put policy into practice and need to be immune from the cycle of elected officials, just as the military needs to be.

All these groups, military, judges, civil service need to be held to high standards and subject to scrutiny with respect to professional conduct.

The USofA looks a bit off to outsiders in many respects, not simply tipping. So many elected positions that aren't merit based and seemingly immune to standards and termination for misconduct.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#152

Post by lostlogin »

mothballed wrote: post #36
thenaturalist wrote: post #15

> East Germany immediately increased border security, closed all small airports close to the border, and ordered the planes kept farther inland.[6] Propane gas tanks became registered products, and large quantities of fabric suitable for balloon construction could no longer be purchased. Mail from East Germany to the two escaped families was prohibited.[12] > Erich Strelzyk learned of his brother's escape on the ZDF…

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

Dubai and is a human rights cesspit.

Sharia law. Beat your wife. law. Fine rape victims. Use slaves, flog gay people.

Name a regressive and disgusting way of treating humans - it’s probably done there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#153

Post by lostlogin »

defrost wrote: post #127
TimTheTinker wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people do tend to forget the meanings of the important words over time though. For example: Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. (Some people reapply that definition to the word "populism". No, it's real democracy to elect the people's choice.) Censorship = intentionally suppress certain ideas and messages Propaganda = choosing what to publish (or e…

> Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. That rather rules out what happens in, say, the USofA, where entrenched party politics limits the choice of the wider population to those few candidates that are backed. > Some people reapply that definition to the word "populism". No, it's real democracy to elect the people's choice. Populism isn't democracy, democrac…

> > Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. That rather rules out what happens in, say, the USofA, where entrenched party politics limits the choice of the wider population to those few candidates that are backed.

It’s also weird in that the candidate with the most votes might not win. The electoral system is weird.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#154

Post by jen20 »

lostlogin wrote: post #148
nephihaha wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hear far more about the precursor than the GDR, don't we? (Actually its immediate precursor was Allied Occupied Germany with the GDR being the Soviet zone.)

Do we? I’d say it’s pretty close, especially if you include every time that someone shrieks ‘that’s socialism,’ or ‘that’s communism’ every time any social programme is proposed. Eg: Shall we improve public healthcare?

> especially if you include every time that someone shrieks ‘that’s socialism,’ or ‘that’s communism’

But... why would you include that? They're certainly not discussions of the DDR.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#156

Post by refurb »

jryle70 wrote: post #119

A reminder of something much bigger, much longer, and far more tragic. People died, families split, a country divided. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

Yup.

I met a guy in the East Bay who escaped Vietnam in 1978. Family sold everything to bribe the government to look the other way.

Boat trip lasted a week - people died, mostly the youngest and oldest, their bodies thrown overboard. Thai pirate came and stole anything of value they had left and raped the women. Boats passed by and did nothing.

They finally make it to Malaysia and spent almost a year in a refugee camp before coming to the US.

Now multiply that story by 2,000,000 with 200,000-400,000 dying along the way. A total of 4-5% of the entire population tried to escape by boat. The lucky ones fled before 1975, some later one.

A massive human tragedy that few people know much about.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#157

Post by Squarex »

It is interesting how dictatorships for resourceless countries needed to keep the people in like east germany or czechoslovakia. But current dictatorships with natural resources like Venezuela or Iran let dissent go. It makes them more stable sadly.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#158

Post by Catholic_Tree »

jancsika wrote: post #129
hopelite wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So turn back the clock to when Hildegard von Bingen was only one of many extremely powerful and influential abbesses that were polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators of women in Europe? I’ve never understood this mentality that people who read and watched handmaids tale, caused some done kind of weird obsession built on a literal fiction story, a made up story… especially since the reality is not on…

> So turn back the clock to when Hildegard von Bingen was only one of many extremely powerful and influential abbesses that were polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators of women in Europe? Who were the other female composers of her generation?

It is a bit disingenuous to jump from

> polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators

to composers. Even the male composers of whom we know the names are few and sparsely attributed. Just look at the Notre Dame school and how little we know except two names with no attached biography and some beautiful music. And even only that by 'lucky accident' since a single, anonymous student wrote them down.

You'll definitely find abbesses like Herrad von Landsberg who did write and educate in her generation.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#159

Post by bboygravity »

lostlogin wrote: post #146
observationist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ballonfahrt in die Freiheit Gotta love the way German sounds to English ears. Always good for a chuckle. This guy is a hacker hero - do the engineering needed, get the proof of concept built, move fast, break things, start over and go big, then scores a victory over the commies and saves his family.

Completely agree - although the shine has rather worn off the ‘move fast and break things’ approach.

SpaceX is doing fine woth that approach?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#160

Post by KiwiJohnno »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #51
mothballed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

That makes sense to me. Authoritarian government is not inherently abusive of citizens, even though it often gets used in rhetoric as though that was the case. It's just that there are no guard rails against the whims of the people in charge, so you better hope you manage to keep good people in charge forever (and that is obviously not going to happen).

I read a quote somewhere that said democracy does nothing to promote good leadership. The point of democracy isn't to elect a good government, the point is to quickly get rid of a bad government
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