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OLED, Not for Me

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Re: OLED, Not for Me

#151
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have one bought used. It’s the only way to have 4k and 200% scaling on Linux without everything being too big or too small. Size and ppi are perfect but sadly other aspects are becoming really dated (bad colors and contrast, high latency, low refresh rate etc).

Huh. Maybe your particular sample is degrading? I also have one, and it's holding up pretty well. A month or so ago I broke out my colorimeter and it had almost 100% sRGB at around 120 cd/m2. I don't recall the delta E, but it was very low. While I didn't measure the backlight, it does seem to not go as bright as before, judging by the levels I set in the OSD. I never went above 70% or so when the sun was shining in…

I have been using P2415Qs for over 10 years by now. Replaced some, bought second hand, had to ship to Dell at one point because of the wake issues (pointless: they never really fixed them), so I know the drill. There are actually 4 versions.

The last new one I bought in 2018 I actually paid the same price for it than when I bought my first one in 2015, so it is one of those few computer accessories that significantly increased in price over its course rather than decrease.

If you cannot see the P2415Q degrading and/or being generally crap in any metric (EXCEPT DPI) when compared to even the non-IPS black Dell monitors from this decade, you are simply blind. They are early HiDPI-revival-era panels, and it shows.

Some of the newer IPS black panels are so good that it is tempting to just take the DPI hit and go 27''... albeit with care as it seems Dell has decided this last year to put some filter that further increases blurriness.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#152
Not on Oled issue but I've noticed that vscode fonts appear much sharper than visual studio fonts. It's subtle, but just enough to make me dislike looking at code in visual studio.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#153
I love how he blames OLED for this, but doesn't care to learn the actual cause: that isn't an RGB subpixel orientation. There are many OLEDs with correct subpixel orientation.

He bought a factory defective monitor. LCDs like this exist, Samsung sold them as AMOLEDS called Pentile. They are hideous.

Until subpixel is eradicated from existence, we shall continue to suffer this.

The problem is such:

1) Windows exists.

2) Windows invented Cleartype for Vista, it was ugly and fringed hard because they misunderstood human perception, the sRGB standard, and math.

3) Windows then readjusted Cleartype for DirectWrite. OSX before Retina and Freetype use subpixel tuning also compatible with human perception, sRGB, and math.

4) Many applications on Windows do not know how to ask Windows what the subpixel orientation is; either they assume RGB all the time (do not do this!) or they only read the first monitor (do not do this!). Windows can tell you per monitor, this is the only correct way. This API has existed since Vista.

5) This problem also effects DPI: they either cannot scale or only scale for the first monitor. Windows scaling for you causes _exceptionally bad_ color fringing for subpixel rendering. Again, the API for that has existed since Vista.

6) Many monitors do not list their subpixel orientation in their EDID. Ones that do and also are rotation sensitive do not set their EDID for RGB->VRGB->BGR->VBGR as you rotate them. Windows assumes RGB for any monitor missing that EDID field.

7) Windows only knows (V)RGB and (V)BGR. It does not know W+RGB, it doesn't know any sort of complex multi-row arrangement (such as Pentile).

8) Many applications ignore your Cleartype settings in Windows, and use RGB at default color weights no matter what you do, even if you turn subpixel off and do greyscale only.

9) And the worst sin of all: people embed screenshots in their documentation and websites, and they never update them. The Internet is full of Vista-era fringe-filled Cleartype text. This ties into 5, but is worth mentioning as its own.

Edit: On second reading, the author says they're on a Mac. Macs don't have subpixel rendering anymore. I don't understand the author's complaint, they have greyscale and avoid all these problems.

I will bitch about Apple's mistakes over the past decade, but removing subpixel rendering from their ecosystem was a smart move: makes all their text rendering compatible with all future monitors forever, and moving to HiDPI eliminates the need for it anyways.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#154

This guy is complaining about fringing...on 9- and 10-pixel high fonts. That works out to 1.6mm or 1.8mm high characters on a 140 dpi screen, or about 1/16 of an inch. He's also got Cleartype on and set to RGB stripe even though the OLED is not RGB stripe (though to be fair, Windows doesn't really make it clear what each page of the ClearType tuner does). But yeah, if you use a _tiny_ font and sit _really_ close to t…

(Author here.)

There's no Cleartype in use here, as the first paragraph says, it's macOS.

And I'm using the default font sizes because they work well for me on an LCD. The point of this post is to document my experience with trying a current-gen generally-available OLED and how it did not work out well because of the subpixel arrangement.

It's also not just an issue on text, it affects any high contrast edges, especially perfectly vertical or horizontal ones. This meant that CAD stuff, spreadsheets (the grid), and large colored sections in graphic design software looked off as well.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#155

This guy is complaining about fringing...on 9- and 10-pixel high fonts. That works out to 1.6mm or 1.8mm high characters on a 140 dpi screen, or about 1/16 of an inch. He's also got Cleartype on and set to RGB stripe even though the OLED is not RGB stripe (though to be fair, Windows doesn't really make it clear what each page of the ClearType tuner does). But yeah, if you use a _tiny_ font and sit _really_ close to t…

I bought a w-oled monitor for office work and gaming, very happy with my oled tv. I returned it after a couple days. I got unbearable eye strain from it, even though I use rather large fonts, and the ppd was the same as with my previous IPS. Yes, the “more fuzzy” text was very much noticeable too. Maybe it varies by person, maybe it’s influenced by things like astigmatism, but I totally see where the author is coming…

(Author here.)

I do have astigmatism. You do make me wonder if this plays a part as well...

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#156

tldr; ms cleartype isn’t always compatible with oled.

This article is about a machine running macOS. Nothing to do with Cleartype in here at all.

Didn't MacOS remove any form of subpixel hinting like 6 OS versions ago?

The OP seems to have a problem not only with fonts but also with straight lines in CAD.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#157
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget sound. Listening to music off a phone speaker. It’s so grating that I don’t understand why anyone would do it.

There was a point in time ( may be 15+ years ago ) I said MacBook have the best laptop speakers and that was one of the reason I brought them. They are not perfect, as any people who cares about audio will tell you but considering the size of laptop they were the best I could get and decent enough. Most of my friends, and nearly everyone on the internet was like, who buys Laptops because of speakers? They all sounded…

The curse of knowledge really. Or perhaps more accurately “awareness”.

You know about things that are to others unknown unknowns. Since ignorance is bliss, it definitely feels like a curse to you, and since what one doesn’t know can hurt them, others would see as a blessing.

Funny world we live in.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is about a machine running macOS. Nothing to do with Cleartype in here at all.

Didn't MacOS remove any form of subpixel hinting like 6 OS versions ago? The OP seems to have a problem not only with fonts but also with straight lines in CAD.

OP is me, and yeah, AFAIK they did.

It's a problem with how this subpixel problem aligns with my use (mostly static content with high contrast edges) at the display scaling I'm using.

It just doesn't work for me, so until I can get a more traditional pixel pattern OLED at a price I'm willing to pay I'll just go back to LCD.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a newer Thinkpad (T14, Ryzen 6850) and while the sound is clear it's shameful how much better my wife's Macbook Air is. I only headphones now. I can't unhear it.

Is this a new Air or an Intel one?

It's an M1 one.

Re: OLED, Not for Me

#160

This guy is complaining about fringing...on 9- and 10-pixel high fonts. That works out to 1.6mm or 1.8mm high characters on a 140 dpi screen, or about 1/16 of an inch. He's also got Cleartype on and set to RGB stripe even though the OLED is not RGB stripe (though to be fair, Windows doesn't really make it clear what each page of the ClearType tuner does). But yeah, if you use a _tiny_ font and sit _really_ close to t…

It's not like the Cleartype tuner actually does what the pages claim - you can go through and use the magnifier to choose the grayscale-only outcomes and still see Windows doing RGB stripe cleartype throughout. People literally have to install third-party tools like MacType or GDI-PlusPlus to get solid font rendering. So blaming users for using it wrong (especially when they're not even on Windows) is odd.

Also, many people can see and are bothered by particular non-rectangular pixel layouts - it doesn't require doing odd things.

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