Payroll taxes are inefficient as they discourage work and increase its cost for employers, leading to lower hiring. If payroll taxes vanishes because of AI, it doesn't mean that we should stop using it to increase productivity, but rather reorient taxes. For instance, land value tax or consumption taxes are often seen as more efficient and fair, depending on their implementation. They also are AI-proof.
Sales taxes are regressive and nonsensical, why punish people because they contribute to the economy by buying stuff? Just do income tax.
AI employees don't pay taxes
151–160 of 190 posts
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
> we would simply see corporate flight from the US Good. If they don't want to pay for the physical and legal infrastructure to make their business possible here, then they can go elsewhere. I'm so tired of this cowardly excuse.
People who also say 'the rich will just stop' ignore that the rich work crazy hard trying to ensure they add to their billions. They already are past the point of noticeable returns for their quality of life, yet they keep at it. In return for their super high taxes we should give them a 'contributor to society' chit or star or something. Then they can gamify over getting chits, instead of hundreds of billions more.…
Don’t worry, the rich will keep working to fund our society. They don’t have any choice, they’re so obsessed with little pieces of paper.
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#153Apart from being all AI-written: > Reality: It’s not fear; it’s math. If 30% of the workforce is displaced, and the remaining 70% have to pay for the social safety net (or UBI) required to keep the displaced alive, the math breaks. The argument being given simply avoids the question of where the economy itself is in all this. The workers pay taxes, the taxes pay for infrastructure, sure. But the workers aren't doing…
I disagree with your assertion. Efficiency, production improvements are exactly what many companies are going for. We already have a huge deficit of software that needs to be written that cannot be written with the current Human programming resources available. We have plenty of things, infrastructure and otherwise, that don’t get built because of a lack of human labor to do them. We haven’t colonized the solar system yet due to a lack of resources, etc…
It’s really pessimistic to think that all this tech is going to go to maintaining the current status quo with just much less labor.
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
We don't have go go to the extremes of employers that pay what is effectively poverty wages relative to cost of living. The household that brings home $80K/yr would always spend a larger percentage of their income on taxable consumption, than an executive that takes home multiple million per year. Progressive income tax brackets are a better tool for making sure those who are able to pay a larger share of the common…
> The household that brings home $80K/yr would always spend a larger percentage of their income on taxable consumption, than an executive that takes home multiple million per year. Progressive income tax brackets are a better tool for making sure those who are able to pay a larger share of the common good, do so. "Progressive income tax brackets" don't actually do this. The people with so much money they can't spend…
How do you take a retiree couple whose main income-earning days are far behind them, and ask them to pay 25% or more on their consumption?
Not an impossible problem, but it’s THE problem.
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#155Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If anything, there’s plenty of literature showing that social programs and tax exemptions on the poor make underpaying them possible to begin with. That literature is playing fast & loose with terminology to justify a preexisting conclusion. Anyhow, we know what life was like before Great Society programs, and it wasn't higher wages for the poor, we've just forgotten because it's been so successful. That memory hol…
> Anyhow, we know what life was like before Great Society programs, and it wasn't higher wages for the poor, we've just forgotten because it's been so successful. That doesn't tell you the answer because the programs were instituted prior to the productivity increases in the 20th century. Are people better off now than they were before the general availability of electric light or mechanized transportation? Probably,…
That's a slight of hand. There's value in choice, and that value is being reaped by the worker precisely because poverty programs make it possible.
But let's go with that example. You're assuming the number of truckers and trucker-hours would remain constant. But they wouldn't. That's just not how dynamic systems work. There are other people for whom short-haul trucking is the less desirable choice than what they're doing now, or who work fewer hours than they're doing now. Without the welfare subsidies, the supply of short-haul trucking labor would likely increase--more people working more hours. Similarly, you're assuming the demand for short-haul trucking would remain the same at higher wages. But demand in economics is not the same thing as "I would like" or even "I need", and at higher wages the demand would likely diminish.
The whole argument is the economics equivalent of a perpetual motion machine, and it's sold by throwing contrived complexity at people and hoping they don't think it through. Like perpetual motion or free energy machines, at the most miniscule scale there are exceptions and caveats (maybe short-haul wages in particular would rise, especially after accounting for the totality of labor economy changes), but those exceptions don't scale to a systems level. That doesn't stop con artists from selling their Rube Goldberg machines, though, knowing the vast majority of people won't think it through.
What the rhetoric is trying to do is bolster support for a livable wage through radical policy changes by drumming up anti-corporate sentiment. It's in service of a normative argument (a "livable wage" is a reasonable social ask, IMO, notwithstanding its amorphous nature), but disguised as a scientific argument that can only result in failure by setting wrong expectations about how markets and policy operate, ultimately reinforcing cynicism.
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The household that brings home $80K/yr would always spend a larger percentage of their income on taxable consumption, than an executive that takes home multiple million per year. Progressive income tax brackets are a better tool for making sure those who are able to pay a larger share of the common good, do so. "Progressive income tax brackets" don't actually do this. The people with so much money they can't spend…
The problem with a consumption tax is not the steady state, but the transition from the current state. How do you take a retiree couple whose main income-earning days are far behind them, and ask them to pay 25% or more on their consumption? Not an impossible problem, but it’s THE problem.
Also, aren't people with an enormous amount of stored wealth "the rich"?
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Chart that against education and training costs(not just college, let’s include things like trade school or mechanics needing to supply their own tools) and basics like housing. Circuses got cheaper, bread didnt
“Disposable income” is what’s left after debt repayment and essentials like food, health care, and shelter. What did you think it meant? I can’t make sense of your reply.
Does this capture if more people are renting and part of their expenditure on shelter each month is just spent vs a mortgage payment where the principal paid off gets you equity? I legitimately don’t know, but I know that single value graphs trying to summarize a complex situation are useless on their own and need more data to draw any conclusions from
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
One problem with any shibboleths people are looking for is as people see more AI writing they're more likely to begin to pick up AI phrasing. I mean, if the power of Web apps can revive the past participle "gotten" in the UK, it shouldn't be surprising it can get people to use the verb "delve" more often.
The shibboleths aren’t the problem with AI writing; the problem is that it’s bad writing. Good writing uses novel combinations of tools (vocabulary, rhetoric, metaphor) to communicate novel ideas. Bad writing is a cargo cult of those tools.
Re: AI employees don't pay taxes
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not taxing anyone under 500k would remove a very large share of tax revenue. Combining that with higher corporate taxes would be nice, but if it got pushed too high (which it would in this scenario) we would simply see corporate flight from the US to elsewhere or it would eliminate practically all the benefit of lower taxes from the less wealthy as the cost of goods would skyrocket. There isn't really a silver bullet…
> we would simply see corporate flight from the US Good. If they don't want to pay for the physical and legal infrastructure to make their business possible here, then they can go elsewhere. I'm so tired of this cowardly excuse.