Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The biggest heat pumps

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 197 posts

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#151

Post by euroderf »

renhanxue wrote: post #135
fsckboy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> energy from treated sewage wouldn't untreated sewage, still fermenting, be warmer?

Maybe. I guess it's easier to handle in treated form though. At the point where it gets to the facility it's actually not really sewage anymore, it's just clean water, so after passing the heat pumps it's just released into a nearby lake via a small turbine (both the sewage treatment plant and the heating plant ar located above the water level of the lake).

So this lake freezes before others in the area ?

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#152

Post by pettertb »

lnsru wrote: post #38
moooo99 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German, I find the popularity of heat pumps in the nordics especially amusing. In Germany heat pumps were an incredibly political topic and people were pushed by some media outlets to really hate heat pumps. One recurring topic was that heat pumps can‘t work at German temperatures.

Nothing amusing. Germany is not really rich compared to nordics. And now let‘s do so math! Electricity: 0,3€/kWh and gas 0,1€/kWh. I need ~3x more gas to get same temperature in my room. And gas heating costs €10k while heat pump €40k without subsidies and probably raw €15k material cost if I install it by myself. So why should I pay more by €30k to install experimental thing for a decade when my low cost gas heating…

Note that we don't have much gas infrastructure here in the nordics, since we (used to) have cheap electricity.

If you choose between heat pump and not-heat-pump electric heating, it is cheaper.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#153

Post by stefanfisk »

moooo99 wrote: post #148
stefanfisk wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but what about the rest of the price difference? Once the electrical is taken care of it should just be a matter of replacing the furnace and pulling some tubes and wires to the outer unit? You said 40k, but the heat pump itself isn’t even 10k.

The biggest factor is almost certainly the subsidy for switching to a heatpump. But there are other factors as well. Air to Air heatpumps are uncommon in Germany, we usually install Air to Water ones, which are more complex. Unlike other countries, our heat pumps are usually mounted on a concrete slab and not on the wall. Then there are some norms for quality of the water, etc. they aim to increase the lifespan of th…

AFAIK we do all of that in Sweden. The 12k I mentioned above is if a large air to water pump suitable for the northernmost of Sweden. It includes a water heater and direct electric heating element for when temperature go below -15.

And why do subsidies INCREASE the price in Germany compared to Sweden?

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#154

Post by renhanxue »

OptionOfT wrote: post #120
willvarfar wrote: post #14

In the nordics we love heat-pumps! Something like 70% of houses are heated by heat-pumps, and 90% of apartment buildings are heated by district heating and that is often generated by huge heatpumps. Apparently 95% of new heating installations in Swedish houses are heat-pumps these days: https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/handle/JRC1... Heatpumps have been heating nordic homes for decades. Even in the co…

Interesting that district heating is so popular there. IIRC in the Netherlands people don't like it, because it because it means that there is a single company supplying my heat, with * minimum amounts of 'heat' purchased * no incentives to maintain their infrastructure above the bare minimum * no competition

Most district heating systems in the Nordics are publicly owned, in part or in full. There are also price controls for the privately owned ones.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#155

Post by hexbin010 »

rsynnott wrote: post #106
hexbin010 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was your old boiler a non-combi? Modern condensing combis I think are designed to be more complex and not last as long. I'm not sure all the complexity and fancy modulation etc is really worth it myself. I'd rather have a boiler that lasts 20 years and that any half-competent gas engineer can fix with a spanner and some spare parts. £20k, jesus!

Whatever about a combi, you probably don't want a non-condensing boiler these days, not with gas the price that it is.

What's the cost savings? Also factoring more expensive purchase, repairs, replacements etc

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#156

Post by mrmlz »

rsynnott wrote: post #109
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many people left with single glazing unless they've been trapped by historic building rules. "Outdoor plumbing" is not a thing. The pump is a drop in replacement unless you have 8mm "microbore" piping, at which point the lower temperature times restricted flow rate becomes a problem in terms of getting enough heat through.

By 'outdoor plumbing' they probably mean pipes running up the outside of buildings (not, like, outhouses). This is somewhat common for waste pipes.

Yes! I was told "its easier to replace when it freezes" :) Obviously older houses.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#157

Post by mrmlz »

willvarfar wrote: post #67
looofooo0 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was solely talking about heat pump adoption due end user prices.

I know I paid about 1000EUR for an air-air heat-pump with install in Sweden, but that was a decade ago and they cost 1500-2000EUR total these days. I also have a fancy big ground-source heat-pump bigger than most residential ones and that cost under 10000EUR total. So not sure what makes them so expensive in other countries; you'd hope competition kept prices competitive.

It is weird, especially since Germany usually is quite a bit cheaper when it comes to tools, construction materiel etc. compared to Sweden.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#158

Post by looofooo0 »

triceratops wrote: post #101
looofooo0 wrote: post #42

Germany at its best, instead of keeping its 20GW+ nuclear power running and get district heating pipes installed to them, they engineer this solution at x times the cost. In this case a 30km pipe from Philippsburg NPP would have done the trick.

It's the year 2135. Discussions about energy anywhere in Europe begin with the customary lament for Germany's shortsighted decision to cease nuclear energy production sometime in the 20th century. Nobody knows where this tradition originates from but it is rigorously upheld.

You mean if Germany still exists and the mongols did not have take over Europe.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#159

Post by looofooo0 »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #73
Maledictus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess who supplies all the nuclear fuel? Russia, and we don't want to buy from them anymore. The same is true for pretty much all nuclear power plants.

This problem could have been solved by breeder reactors. Now China is doing it instead of us.

Well that thing was never turned on in Germany.

Re: The biggest heat pumps

#160

Post by looofooo0 »

mrmlz wrote: post #157
willvarfar wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I paid about 1000EUR for an air-air heat-pump with install in Sweden, but that was a decade ago and they cost 1500-2000EUR total these days. I also have a fancy big ground-source heat-pump bigger than most residential ones and that cost under 10000EUR total. So not sure what makes them so expensive in other countries; you'd hope competition kept prices competitive.

It is weird, especially since Germany usually is quite a bit cheaper when it comes to tools, construction materiel etc. compared to Sweden.

In Germany you have very strict laws for construction of water heating. For example the need to install thermostat on any heater even for floor heating. But this implies a lot of complexity for the heat pump installation. Cheap DIY community basically removes all the thermostats and soley controls heating through water temp and flow control to the radiators.
Post reply on HN