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AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

martinalderson.com

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Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#151
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if you assume that you are producing the same amount of code as today. Though, AI ultimately will produce more code which will require higher maintenance. Your internal team will need to scale up due to the the amount of code they need to maintain. Your security team will have more work to do as well because they will need to review more code which will require scaling that team as well. Your infras…

> The reality is that software license costs is a tiny fraction of total business costs Yes and no. If someone is controlling the SaaS selection, then this is true. But I've seen startup phase companies with multiple slightly overlapping SaaS subscriptions (Linear + Trello + Asana for example), just because one PM prefers one over the other. Then people have bought full-ass SaaS costing 50-100€/month for a single tas…

There is no yes and no. This is a fact. Even a small startup of 3-5 people will pay more in terms of salaries than the total license costs they consume. A larger enterprise will will spend 50 to 100 times more on salaries then software license fees.

The reason software licenses are easier to cut by the finance team when things are not going well is because software does not have feelings although we all know that this not making a dent. Ultimately software scales much better than people and if the software is "thinking" it will scale infinitely better.

Building it all in house will only happen for 2 reasons: 1. The problem is so specific that this is the only variable option and the quickest (fear enough). 2. Developers and management do not have real understanding of software costs.

Developers not understanding the real costs should be forgiven because most of them are never in position to make these type of decisions - i.e they are not trained. However a manager / executive not understanding this is sign of lack of experience. You really need to try to build a few medium-sized none essential software systems in-house to get an idea how bad this can get and what a waste of time and money it really is - resources you could have spent elsewhere to effect the bottom the real bottomline.

Also the lines of code that are written do not scale linearly with team sizes. The more code you produce the bigger the problem - even with AI.

Ultimately a company wants to write as few line of code as possible that extract as much value as feasibly possible.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#152
post #146
post #135

I am the founder of a niche SaaS ( https://partsbox.com/ — software for managing electronic parts inventory and production). While I am somewhat worried about AI capabilities, I'm not losing too much sleep over it. The worry is that customers who do not realize the full depth of the problem will implement their own app using AI. But that happens today, too: people use spreadsheets to manage their electronic parts (pl…

> The real value is in understanding the world (the processes involved) and modeling it in a way that cuts a good compromise between ease of use and complexity. Which I don't think can be replaced by AI in a lot of cases. I think in the software world we are used to things being shared, open and easily knowable, but a great deal of industry and enterprise domain knowledge is locked up inside in companies and will not…

> Which I don't think can be replaced by AI in a lot of cases

Yes. I try to visit my customers as often as I can, to learn how they work and to see the production processes on site. I consider it to be one of the most valuable things I can do for the future of my business.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#153
I'm seeing the opposite. AI is actually increasing the demand for what would previously be too expensive, bespoke integrations and solutions. Those are now becoming more feasible and doable. There is also the notion that a lot of companies are actually very behind on embracing software or SAAS. Especially in manufacturing it's common to see operations that haven't materially changed anything in decades.

The fallacy here is believing we already had all the software we were going to use and that AI is now eliminating 90% of the work of creating that. The reality is inverted, we only had a fraction of the software that is now becoming possible and we'll be busy using our new AI tools to create absolutely massive amounts of it over the next years. The ambition level got raised quite a bit recently and that is starting to generate work that can only be done with the support of AI (or an absolutely massive old school development budget).

It's going to require different skills and probably involve a lot more domain experts picking up easy to use AI tools to do things themselves that they previously would have needed specialized programmers for. You get to skip that partially. But you still need to know what you are doing before you can ask for sensible things to get done. Especially when things are mission critical, you kind of want to know stuff works properly and that there's no million $ mistakes lurking anywhere.

Our typical customers would need help with all of that. The amount of times I've had to deal with a customer that had vibe coded anything by themselves remains zero. Just not a thing in the industry. Most of them are still juggling spreadsheets and ERP systems.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#154

I’m currently working on an in house ERP and inventory system for a specific kind of business. With very few people you can now instead of paying loads of money for some off the shelf solution to your software needs get something completely bespoke to your business. I think AI enables the age of boutique software that works fantastically for businesses, agencies will need to dramatically reduce their price to compete…

I agree about boutique software, but see the development still being external -

To attempt to summarize the debate, there seems to be three prevailing schools of thought:

1. Status Quo + AI. SaaS companies will adopt AI and not lose share. Everyone keeps paying for the same SaaS plus a few bells and whistles. This seems unlikely given AI makes it dramatically cheaper to build and maintain SaaS. Incumbents will save on COGS, but have to cut their pricing (which is a hard sell to investors in the short term).

2. SaaS gets eaten by internal development (per OP). Unlikely in short/medium term (as most commenters highlight). See: complete cloud adoption will take 30+ years (shows that even obviously positive ROI development often does not happen). This view reminds me a bit of the (in)famous DropBox HN comment(1) - the average HN commenter is 100x more minded to hack and maintain their own tool than the market.

benzible (commenter) elsewhere said this well - "The bottleneck is still knowing what to build, not building. A lot of the value in our product is in decisions users don't even know we made for them. Domain expertise + tight feedback loop with users can't be replicated by an internal developer in an afternoon."

This same logic explains why external boutique beats internal builds --

3. AI helps boutique-software flourish because it changes vendor economics (not buyer economics). Whereas previously an ERP for a specific niche industry (e.g. wealth managers who only work with Canadian / US cross-border clients) would have had to make do with a non-specific ERP, there will now be a custom solution for them. Before AI, the $20MM TAM for this product would have made it a non-starter for VC backed startups. But now, a two person team can build and maintain a product that previously took ten devs. Distribution becomes the bottleneck.

This trend has been ongoing for a while -- Toast, Procore, Veeva -- AI just accelerates it.

If I had to guess, I expect some combination of all three - some incumbents will adapt well, cut pricing, and expand their offering. Some customers will move development in house (e.g. I have already seen several large private equity firms creating their own internal AI tooling teams rather than pay for expensive external vendors). And there will be a major flourishing of boutique tools.

(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#155
post #9

Earlier this year I thought that rare proprietary knowledge and IP was a safe haven from AI, since LLMs can only scrub public data. Then it dawned on me how many companies are deeply integrating Copilot into their everyday workflows. It's the perfect Trojan Horse.

providers' ToS explicitly states whether or not any data provided is used for training purposes. the usual that i've seen is that while they retain the right to use the data on free tiers, it's almost never the case for paid tiers

I bet companies are circumventing this in a way that allows them to derive almost all the benefit from your data, yet makes it very hard to build a case against them.

For example, in RL, you have a train set, and a test set, which the model never sees, but is used to validate it - why not put proprietary data in the test set?

I'm pretty sure 99% of ML engineers would say this would constitute training on your data, but this is an argument you could drag out in courts forever.

Or alternatively - it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I've recently had an apocalyptic vision, that one day we'll wake up, an find that AI companies have produced an AI copy of every piece of software in existence - AI Windows, AI Office, AI Photoshop etc.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#156
I dont think any opinion right now is going to be definitive. This is like mixing paint, the edges are still white, while the centre is colored.

What Iam seeing is that customers are delaying purchases of large expensive software. Prime example; SAP. ECC migrations to SaaS model RISE/GROW-PublicCloud are stalling, same with onprem S4 to RISE. I see a whole bunch of my customers instead go with retaining the core but modernize surround apps with intelligent custom apps without feature bloat. For now, SAP/oracle/whatever remains the system of record, the edges are going away. I guess the same is likely happening in other spaces.

This change is coming. Definitely. The current moats around SaaS will fall and the alternate ecosystem might not have moats at all.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#157

> Agents don't leave How wrong the author is about that! IMO As soon as the bubble bursts, which is already evident and imminent, these agents will raise their subscription fees to ridiculous amounts. And when that happens, entire organizations will abandon them and return to good ol' human engineering

> IMO As soon as the bubble bursts, which is already evident and imminent, these agents will raise their subscription fees to ridiculous amounts. And when that happens, entire organizations will abandon them and return to good ol' human engineering

It's worse than you state; a primary premise of the current AI expansion and investment, continuously repeated, is that computational resources are increasing for the same price-point.

So tell me, when we have these hardware gains in 5 years, why the fuck would I pay for fractionally better output on a cloud subscription when I could run on-prem GPUs for a fraction of what the actual subscription would be, giving me 24x7 agents working with no limit?

Current highly-invested AI providers are token providers - they are sitting at the bottom of the value-chain. They are trying to climb the value-chain, but the real value is in the models, and since all models have mostly converged on the same performance, running your own gives a very tiny drop in value.

Their problem is that, even at $200/m, it is not feasible to offer 24x7 access to the models - that max subscription has tiny limits: on that subscription you most definitely are not enabling even a single agent to run f/time.

You might get 3 hours per day, maybe. Best case, you get half a working day (4 hours), for five days. So double the subscription, and you're still looking at only a single simply agent that you can run f/time for $400/m.

For collaborating agents, you'll have, what, 4 - 5 diving into a large task in parallel? That's maybe $1600/m - $2000/m to solve tasks. You still have to pay the (increasingly incompetent) human operator to manage them.

That sort of workflow is what is being sold as the vision, and yet that will only be economically viable if you're self-hosting your own model.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#158

I'm seeing the opposite. AI is actually increasing the demand for what would previously be too expensive, bespoke integrations and solutions. Those are now becoming more feasible and doable. There is also the notion that a lot of companies are actually very behind on embracing software or SAAS. Especially in manufacturing it's common to see operations that haven't materially changed anything in decades. The fallacy h…

> Especially in manufacturing it's common to see operations that haven't materially changed anything in decades.

> Especially when things are mission critical, you kind of want to know stuff works properly and that there's no million $ mistakes lurking anywhere.

This is what I'm wondering about; things don't change because the company doesn't like change, and the risks of change are very real. So changes either have to be super incremental, or offer such a compelling advantage that they can't be ignored. And AI just doesn't offer the sort of reproducible, reliable results that manufacturing absolutely depends on.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#159

I'm CTO at a vertical SaaS company, paired with a product-focused CEO with deep domain expertise. The thesis doesn't match my experience. For one thing, the threat model assumes customers can build their own tools. Our end users can't. Their current "system" is Excel. The big enterprises that employ them have thousands of devs, but two of them explicitly cloned our product and tried to poach their own users onto it.…

> Domain expertise + tight feedback loop

This is the answer to a happy B2B SaaS implementation. It doesn't matter what tools you use as long as this can be achieved.

In the domain of banking front/back office LOB apps, if you aren't iterating with your customer at least once per business day, you are definitely falling behind your competition. I've got semi-retired bankers insisting that live edits in production need to be a fundamental product feature. They used to be terrified of this. Once they get a taste of proper speed it's like blood in the water. I'm getting pushback on live reloads taking more than a few seconds now.

Achieving this kind of outcome is usually more of a meat space problem than it is a technology problem. Most customers can't go as fast as you. But the customer should always be the bottleneck. We've done things like install our people as temporary employees to get jobs done faster.

Re: AI agents are starting to eat SaaS

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing is really preventing this though The enterprise user agreement is preventing this. Suggesting that AI companies will uniquely ignore the law or contracts is conspiracy theory thinking.

It already happened. "Meta Secretly Trained Its AI on a Notorious Piracy Database, Newly Unredacted Court Docs Reveal" https://www.wired.com/story/new-documents-unredacted-meta-co... They even admitted to using copyrighted material. "‘Impossible’ to create AI tools like ChatGPT without copyrighted material, OpenAI says" https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/jan/08/ai-tools-...

Though the porn they copied was just for personal use, because clearly that's an important perk of being employed there:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/meta-says-the-2400-adult-mov...

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