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Rats Play DOOM

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Re: Rats Play DOOM

#151

Post by blobbers »

aw124 wrote: post #118

I'm opposed to this project because it involves using animals in medical experiments, which I believe is never ethically justifiable. It goes against basic moral and ethical principles regarding animal treatment. If the project were designed to allow animals to choose whether or not to participate, it would be more acceptable. Some scientists have already explored such approaches. By not giving animals a choice, you'…

Given that we're not great at communicating with animals, what level of reward would be considered justifiable for participating in the study?

As in they could get a reward for starting the study...

Also, isn't this sort of "voluntary" testing a little unethical in itself? For example, testing an addictive drug on a rat, they don't know the downstream consequences since there is limited communication, but the immediate effects might be incredibly gratifying. It would lead to high "volunteer" rates but still expose them to massive harm.

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#152

Post by [deleted] »

Sardtok wrote: post #116

In the year 2032, the rodrone wars broke out. What started as innocent video game experiments, had taken a dark turn. After the rats had perfected playing the classic Doom games in 2026, they were easily trained on more complex simulations. In 2028 the first rodent controlled surveillance drones were tested. The year after weaponised. And the first real deployments in warfare in 2030. They easily outperformed OpenAIs…

[deleted]

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#153

Post by godelski »

sdenton4 wrote: post #93
godelski wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I hope you don't take this as me being upset. I'm super happy and totally get the motivation. I a fan of the adage "better to do something half assed than no assed" (not that this is half-assed). Just wanted to make the comment to help drive motivation and let you know there's a demand. Releasing the sources could really help too just so people don't have to work with the mesh. But on the rat part, that is super…

This mod includes collecting cheese (though it's a side activity, and maybe too subtle for the rats): https://youtu.be/qPRvw6kRN-8?si=j9iuTuiHerm0AhQ2 And here's a thing I knew had to exist: a doom mod/level set on a moon made of cheese... https://youtu.be/XxdeUbE9kvw?si=_cpJQKuDy87BN7EP&t=10m20s

They missed a real opportunity for "Omelette Doom Fromage" there

But yeah, I'd wager too subtle. I'm also questioning now how much rats use smell for navigating their environments. I notice that my cat is a lot more smell oriented than I initially thought and I think it makes a big difference. Hard to tell though.

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#154

Post by basket_horse »

Is this related to the Tank lab experiments at Princeton?

I’ve seen this before with the practical application being that you can keep the animal stationary while it thinks it’s moving, in order to record brain activity.

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#155

Post by senderista »

aw124 wrote: post #118

I'm opposed to this project because it involves using animals in medical experiments, which I believe is never ethically justifiable. It goes against basic moral and ethical principles regarding animal treatment. If the project were designed to allow animals to choose whether or not to participate, it would be more acceptable. Some scientists have already explored such approaches. By not giving animals a choice, you'…

Do your pets give you consent for everything you do with them?

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#157

Post by cylemons »

Buttons840 wrote: post #138
theultdev wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point. The chips are exchanged for money shortly after. The brain knows this. Similar to the rat knowing the sugar comes very shortly after the task.

Yep. And money is just another kind of chip. What's so great about money?

It gets exchanged for hamburgers

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#158

Post by slim »

quasarj wrote: post #4

How can he not include a video of it working? D:

because there's nothing to show

  We reached the point of rat habituation but didn’t start training. Our rats (Todd, Kojima, Gabe) aged out before full testing. The setup works, but behavioral validation is pending.

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#159

Post by hashstring »

mmooss wrote: post #142
aw124 wrote: post #118

I'm opposed to this project because it involves using animals in medical experiments, which I believe is never ethically justifiable. It goes against basic moral and ethical principles regarding animal treatment. If the project were designed to allow animals to choose whether or not to participate, it would be more acceptable. Some scientists have already explored such approaches. By not giving animals a choice, you'…

You have interesting points but I feel you are jumping to conclusions. 'Curiosity not judgment' is a great rule for me, at least, because I rarely know enough to judge. Criticizing without knowing almost certainly makes me wrong, produces nothing, and costs me the opportunity to do something useful. It also wastes time and energy for multiple people. It also is unfair to the experimenters and alienates them, when the…

> Even if the researchers agreed, would they want to have this judgmental, attacking person around?

1. You calling the person above judgmental and attacking is not as tolerant either.

2. What about things that are morally wrong? Slave owners wouldn’t want to have a judgmental attacking person around either. Does that mean we have to have curious-discussions about slavery?

Re: Rats Play DOOM

#160

Post by mmooss »

hashstring wrote: post #159
mmooss wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have interesting points but I feel you are jumping to conclusions. 'Curiosity not judgment' is a great rule for me, at least, because I rarely know enough to judge. Criticizing without knowing almost certainly makes me wrong, produces nothing, and costs me the opportunity to do something useful. It also wastes time and energy for multiple people. It also is unfair to the experimenters and alienates them, when the…

> Even if the researchers agreed, would they want to have this judgmental, attacking person around? 1. You calling the person above judgmental and attacking is not as tolerant either. 2. What about things that are morally wrong? Slave owners wouldn’t want to have a judgmental attacking person around either. Does that mean we have to have curious-discussions about slavery?

Your comment finds ways to make it adversarial. What are you trying to build?

> What about things that are morally wrong?

That takes possibly the most certain path toward evil: I think what they do is morally wrong so I can act without morality toward them. It's the rationalization of many awful acts and people and ideologies. Just look at the worst of what religions do.

We should not think we are somehow above or exempt from that error, or so above sin generally that we can preach.

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