Live data from Hacker News

What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

andrej.sh

151–160 of 171 posts

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#151
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/sigh Because open source is not just about the code and the license. It is first and foremost about a community of people who want to make software better for everyone, not just for themselves or a select few. The code and license are ancillary to this goal. I won't get into this discussion again. I'll just say that if you think otherwise, whatever good you think you're putting out into the world, is not much better…

You have this entirely backwards. Open source is, definitionally, the code and a license. It is "first and foremost" those things. The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities. Everything else in open source is a cultural projection entirely ancillary to the code and the license. > I'll just say that if you think…

Funny, I think it is you who has this backwards.

> The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license.

That is obviously false. Communities form around any common interest. They also exist around proprietary software, where no code is shared.

When code is freely available, it is the community of people who make the project successful—not the code, and certainly not a piece of legalese text.

> The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities.

Technically true, but such projects languish in obscurity. They're driven by the will of a small group of people, often the original lone author, and once that diminishes, they are abandoned and forgotten. The vast majority of software which can technically be described as "open source" is mostly inconsequential to computing or anyone's lives. It once scratched the itch of a single person, and now sits unread on some storage device.

Thus, communities are what make software successful. Not just free software, but software in general. We write software for people, and we publish its source code to help others. We do so because software is better when shared and improved by a community of passionate users, rather than written by one or a few people who wanted it to exist.

It's wild that you would bring up Stallman as an example, since everything he's done goes completely against your point. That printer story served as a good example to illustrate to others why free software is necessary—not just for him, or for the team and company he worked with at the time, but for the world at large. He didn't need to invent a social movement and philosophy to fix his printer issues. He probably could've hacked around it and found a solution that worked for their specific case, and called it a day. And yet he didn't. He believed that software could be built and shared in a different way. In a way that would benefit everyone, and not just the people who wrote it. He believed in the power of sharing knowledge freely, of collaborating, and building communities of like-minded people. The source code is important, and the license less so, but it is this philosophy that brings the most value to the world.

> A ton of very important open source code was thrust into the world, created immense value, but was never further supported or developed by its original developers. Off the top of my head: git, Doom, Bitcoin, and basically everything Fabrice Bellard has ever done.

Whether the original developers supported it or not is irrelevant. All of the examples you mentioned are projects supported by someone, and have communities of passionate people around them. That is the point. Individuals may come and go. The author is no more important than any talented and passionate member of the community. But someone cares enough to continue maintaining the software, and to nurture the community of users around it, without which none of these projects would be remotely as successful as they are today.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK only transactions over $10k are reported, maybe different between personal and business accounts?

Reporting to tax authorities by banks/financial institutions was bumped down to any receiving of an amount in excess of $600 during the Biden admin.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. That's for "business" transactions, IIRC. I wonder how they distinguish....

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not as simple as it sounds. Just yesterday I had a call with the Delft university of technology in Netherland, they want me to add some features on the free version of my FOSS product [1] but they did not want to pay anything. Over the last month, I was in contact with a 800B publicly traded company for a 1.8k per year invoice, once we agreed on the general direction they kept adding expectations, first was t…

Really: add a zero to your price. These companies burn millions on procurement bureaucracy. Make them pay for your misery.

Two zeros actually

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#155
The first point about documentation really has to do with the question: whom are you willing to support?

Instead of seeing it as "users of X platform", I think it's more useful to divide user groups into:

1. Completely non-technical users who, at worst, wouldn't know how to download anything, and at best only know how to install from an ".exe" file;

2. Middle-ground users who, at worst, are not willing to learn your preferred way of installation, or at best, are new to non-common installation methods;

3. Technically proficient users who, at worst, have arbitrary reasons for disliking your preferred way of installation, or at best, have legitimate reasons for disliking it;

4. Your ideal technically proficient users.

FOSS is often geared towards the fourth category, and for good reason. But if you want your tool to be adopted more widely, you have to learn more about those other user groups, and how to support them beyond documentation.

And here I'd say it's also fair to look for good reasons or funding for that extra support, because if it's not rewarding work, it doesn't have to stay free as in free beer (even if it's FOSS).

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this entirely backwards. Open source is, definitionally, the code and a license. It is "first and foremost" those things. The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities. Everything else in open source is a cultural projection entirely ancillary to the code and the license. > I'll just say that if you think…

Maybe you are lasering in on a term we use to describe software, but they are talking more broadly about maintaining open source (lower case, btw) collaborative software. - https://lkml.org/ - https://www.postgresql.org/list/ Though I have to be very charitable to grant your point. Even your examples support their point of "people who want to make software better for everyone, not just for themselves or a select few"…

> Stallman just cared about code, like fixing his printer, and not a whole social movement?

Stallman created a social movement that just cared about code, yes. He needed the social movement to create an environment in which he could fix his printer.

The social movement was about the license and the code, not about providing support for, documentation of, or continuing development of any particular code.

By creating an environment where code is open, you allow for communities to organically form around code and maintain it. Without the environment, without the code and the license, the communities cannot form.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#157
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this entirely backwards. Open source is, definitionally, the code and a license. It is "first and foremost" those things. The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities. Everything else in open source is a cultural projection entirely ancillary to the code and the license. > I'll just say that if you think…

Funny, I think it is you who has this backwards. > The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. That is obviously false. Communities form around any common interest. They also exist around proprietary software, where no code is shared. When code is freely available, it is the community of people who make the project successful—not the code, and certainly not a piece of legalese text. > The c…

> That is obviously false...

It is fundamentally true. You cannot have a Pokemon community without Pokemon, a knitting community with yarn, or a software community without software.

> Technically true

You should have stopped here. It is true. Period, full stop. Everything else is fluff.

> The vast majority of software which can technically be described as "open source" is mostly inconsequential to computing or anyone's lives.

This is because the open source software movement was so overwhelming in its success it became the norm.

> He didn't need to invent a social movement and philosophy to fix his printer issue.

Yes he did. The philosophy is about the freedom to fix your printer. It is not about engaging others to fix your printer, or obliging maintainers to fix your printer.

Those things are follow ons to the core philosophy. Once you have the freedom to fix your printer, you can form communities of people also interested in fixing printers. The freedom comes first.

> Whether the original developers supported it or not is irrelevant.

It's literally the only thing we're talking about. Open source enables others to come along and support software abandoned by or simply never championed by its original creator. Without open source you do not have those later "someones".

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this entirely backwards. Open source is, definitionally, the code and a license. It is "first and foremost" those things. The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities. Everything else in open source is a cultural projection entirely ancillary to the code and the license. > I'll just say that if you think…

Code existed before FOSS. Code that people collaborated on existed before FOSS. Code given away for free existed before FOSS. FOSS code, by itself, is not anything special. Licences also existed before FOSS, but open sources licences enabling the kind of freedoms that they allow did not exist. And as it happens, a license is not a technical artefact but a social contract. Stallman is activist, not simply a neutral co…

> The community doesn't need to be a 'house party,' but the license guarantees the right for a community to form when the original author walks away.

Which is why the license is the only thing that matters. Without the license you don't have the community. It will happen with some code, it won't happen to other code. Without the license, or without the code, it never happens.

The only thing you need to do as an open source software developer is release your code under an open source license. You don't need to respond to or even maintain an issue tracker, you don't need to accept MRs into your upstream, you don't need to care about anyone else using your code.

Open source places no other obligations on a developer other than the license. To say otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand what open source is.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#159
post #145
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the company wants a proper invoice. And not every single developer is interested in founding a Limited and getting the tax office breathing down their neck every year. I feel like it shouldn't be poor form to say on this site - a site that predominantly has been about building tech companies and revenue streams - to get over it and charge them .

Depending on the local laws, that's easier said than done. E.g. in Germany, a private entity (read: person) can't just bill a company. And you can't just write something that resembles an invoice either. Especially, you're not allowed to make it look like a business invoice by putting net sums on it. A German business on the other side of the transaction rarely will pay anything if there's not a proper invoice (listi…

In case it wasn't clear from my other comments up and down this comment chain, I don't really care about the specifics of Germany. If it's hard for you[1] to do it in Germany, then suck it up and figure it out.

More than enough has been written about how the ecosystem in various EU countries stifles entrepreneurship. It's not new information, but it's not a problem for the vast majority of people reading this site. This site is also focused on supporting entrepreneurship, we should be supporting the default approach of getting paid for your work.

Germany needs to change, not the stance of this site or the argument of charging for your work/time/etc.

[1] (the proverbial you)

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#160
post #120
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re telling me all I have to do to stop all the noob questions is to switch off of GitHub?

Yeah on codeberg you'll get much less of that

I assume I'll get much less of everything if I switch to codeberg?
Post reply on HN