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A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#151

Post by diego_moita »

vacuity wrote: post #147
fhdkweig wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism doesn't turn into worship of anything. That's the point of atheism. It is clear to me that you have never met an atheist.

Not directly, but people find ways to believe in a manner analogous to religious beliefs. Faith doesn't have to be directed only at traditional theist objects. Religious or not, people can believe things by faith and by logic. To give an example, science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly, but some people elevate it far beyond its means to answer certain inquiries. That is irrational…

> science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly,

Yes, but it is far better than a fraud. Therefore it is the best we have to understand the world. And fairy tales invented by illiterate people thousands of years ago aren't a path to understand the world. They're a fraud, plain and simple.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#152

Post by Stevvo »

wtcactus wrote: post #144
Stevvo wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections" This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.

As you might understand (or avoid to). Franco didn't wake up one day and decided to start a civil war out of nowhere. In the period of 1933-1936, there was major violence against the legitimately elected Right-Wing government from Marxist groups that adopted a revolutionary approach to take power in Spain: "The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization…

That is historical context, not justification for 39 years of fascist dictatorship.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#153

Post by vacuity »

diego_moita wrote: post #151
vacuity wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not directly, but people find ways to believe in a manner analogous to religious beliefs. Faith doesn't have to be directed only at traditional theist objects. Religious or not, people can believe things by faith and by logic. To give an example, science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly, but some people elevate it far beyond its means to answer certain inquiries. That is irrational…

> science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly, Yes, but it is far better than a fraud. Therefore it is the best we have to understand the world. And fairy tales invented by illiterate people thousands of years ago aren't a path to understand the world. They're a fraud, plain and simple.

I think you're being uncharitable towards religion. While I agree that a belief such as "the Earth was made 6000 years ago" is ridiculous, a belief like "God wants us to love our neighbors" is not. I think "good beliefs" (a very loaded term, mind you) get rediscovered constantly, in religious and nonreligious contexts alike. These are beliefs attained through philosophical inquiry. The beliefs provided by science are complementary.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#154

Post by diego_moita »

vacuity wrote: post #153
diego_moita wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly, Yes, but it is far better than a fraud. Therefore it is the best we have to understand the world. And fairy tales invented by illiterate people thousands of years ago aren't a path to understand the world. They're a fraud, plain and simple.

I think you're being uncharitable towards religion. While I agree that a belief such as "the Earth was made 6000 years ago" is ridiculous, a belief like "God wants us to love our neighbors" is not. I think "good beliefs" (a very loaded term, mind you) get rediscovered constantly, in religious and nonreligious contexts alike. These are beliefs attained through philosophical inquiry. The beliefs provided by science are…

> I think you're being uncharitable towards religion.

You are correct. I am, deliberately, "being uncharitable towards religion". I had far too much Catholicism in my upbringing to be respectful of any religion. If you want to know what I mean by Catholicism read the story linked by the title post, about Catholic parents in Catholic Spain. My story wasn't that bad but I saw a lot of that prejudice, arrogance and intolerance. It isn't surprising that in 50 years the country of Spain went from majorly Catholic to majorly agnostic.

> a belief like "God wants us to love our neighbors" is not.

You don't need "God wants" in that. Empathy doesn't need "God". Unlike what church people think, non-religious people have empathy and decency, too. Human beings are social animals, doing empathy is a common trait that doesn't need "divine" justification.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#155

Post by vacuity »

diego_moita wrote: post #154
vacuity wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being uncharitable towards religion. While I agree that a belief such as "the Earth was made 6000 years ago" is ridiculous, a belief like "God wants us to love our neighbors" is not. I think "good beliefs" (a very loaded term, mind you) get rediscovered constantly, in religious and nonreligious contexts alike. These are beliefs attained through philosophical inquiry. The beliefs provided by science are…

> I think you're being uncharitable towards religion. You are correct. I am, deliberately, "being uncharitable towards religion". I had far too much Catholicism in my upbringing to be respectful of any religion. If you want to know what I mean by Catholicism read the story linked by the title post, about Catholic parents in Catholic Spain. My story wasn't that bad but I saw a lot of that prejudice, arrogance and into…

I agree that religion isn't necessary, but it's not necessarily bad. You're making a big generalization. There are plenty of people who abuse religious beliefs, but I'm more concerned with calling out people who abuse principles from any cut of cloth, and religion is only a part of that.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#156

Post by diego_moita »

vacuity wrote: post #155
diego_moita wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you're being uncharitable towards religion. You are correct. I am, deliberately, "being uncharitable towards religion". I had far too much Catholicism in my upbringing to be respectful of any religion. If you want to know what I mean by Catholicism read the story linked by the title post, about Catholic parents in Catholic Spain. My story wasn't that bad but I saw a lot of that prejudice, arrogance and into…

I agree that religion isn't necessary, but it's not necessarily bad. You're making a big generalization. There are plenty of people who abuse religious beliefs, but I'm more concerned with calling out people who abuse principles from any cut of cloth, and religion is only a part of that.

> people who abuse principles from any cut of cloth, and religion is only a part of that.

That's true, fair point. It happens also in a lot of secular political ideologies.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#157

Post by wtcactus »

bgnn wrote: post #146
wtcactus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you might understand (or avoid to). Franco didn't wake up one day and decided to start a civil war out of nowhere. In the period of 1933-1936, there was major violence against the legitimately elected Right-Wing government from Marxist groups that adopted a revolutionary approach to take power in Spain: "The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization…

I would have never thought to see a Franco apologist with my own eyes. Wow, thank you for this unique moment. Anyhow, Franco was a fascist trash and allied with Hitler and Mussolini. Revolutionaries were mainly anarchists (NOT communists). In fact it's because of Stalin and the communists following him starting an infighting with the anarchists led to the fascist victory. If the revolutionaries have won, Spain would…

> "If the revolutionaries have won, Spain would have been an experimental socialist/anarchist republic."

I tend to agree with that, because nothing shouts "experimental socialist/anarchist republic" like "murdering numerous policemen, clergymen and civilians, destroying religious buildings including churches, convents and part of the university".

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#158

Post by slumberlust »

HiPhish wrote: post #82
nekusar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might take a karma hit for this, but whatever. Its the truth. Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse, and then turning around and claiming its to "save them", so the abuse isnt reallllly abuse. Most of these camps cited are christian. And the people running them? Dogmatic christian fundamentalists. And these are the same types that run "pray the gay away" camps too. And my inflammatory, alb…

[flagged]

It's possible to be moral without religion. Your assertion stands stronger with tribalism than religion.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#159

Post by rayiner »

diego_moita wrote: post #149
rayiner wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true. The supposedly “secular people” I know are always prattling about “human dignity” and stuff that sounds very religious. They don’t think of humans as walking meat like a non-religious person would.

> “human dignity” and stuff that sounds very religious. Even bonobo monkeys and elephants understand empathy for others. Should we then assume that monkeys and elephants are very religious, too? > like a non-religious person would. Oh, I see you took a lot of care in trying to understand what a "non-religious person" is. Are all church people this smart, too? /s

> Even bonobo monkeys and elephants understand empathy for others.

Empathy is an emotion. Emotions are real. You can see emotions in brain scans. But anger, desire for revenge, disgust, in-group affinity, etc., are also real emotions! It's rational to use people's emotions to guide what society should do. But most putatively secular people disagree with that approach! They're constantly telling people to put aside their emotions in favor of supposed universal principles that sound suspiciously similar to religious beliefs.

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