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Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

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Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#151
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, we make laws and they are there to make society work/better. So whilst the legal answer is "yes", I presume the real question was "_Is_ this gender discrimination?", as in; let's actually think about it instead of fobbing it off to the current state of the law. If the law is nonsensical or harmful, it can and should be changed.

> "_Is_ this gender discrimination?" Still a yes from me. I see no reason to change the law to prevents people from being discriminated against in employment opportunities, And that was implied in my comment. I was not “fobbing” to the current laws, I was saying, this is illegal and for good reason. Whether intentional or not, you cannot advertise a job to only certain people based on targeting by a protected charact…

> Whether intentional or not, you cannot advertise a job to only certain people based on targeting by a protected characteristic.

To clarify, my question was specifically about the case where you could prove that the ad system could not possibly target based on a protected characteristic (gender, in this example). The only thing the ad system could learn is a user's interest in ads for a job.

An ad system like this will show more ads to the people who are interested in them and less to the people who are not. In the case when there is a genuine difference in job interest along gender lines, the "more interested" and "less interested" groups will just happen to have different gender profiles.

So my question was: In these circumstances, if the system gives more ads for the job to the people who want them and less to the people who do not, is that gender discrimination?

EDITED TO ADD: To further clarify: I think you're arguing that if there are observable differences in job ad rates along gender lines, then it follows that the ad system is, in fact, targeting based on gender. I constructed this example to rule out that possibility: The ad system cannot target -- or take any action -- based on gender. All it knows is which users are interested in ads for a job.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#152
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the harm in child care and education should be obvious: children need role models of both genders. in no other profession is it as important for gender parity to be enforced. so at least in that area there is most certainly a systemic harm if one gender dominates.

It's not obvious at all. I would never count on my children getting their role models from their daycare providers.

every adult the children come in contact with is a role model. children don't select their role models. the amount of time that children spend in kindergarten and school makes that inevitable. for good and for bad. you can't not count on children getting their role models from there, but you can't even avoid it. children need role models from both genders. and if there is no gender parity (or something reasonably close) in education, then they are not getting the role models they need.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#153
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not using ancient history to justify it. I'm saying it's been around longer than algorithmic advertising. The comment I'm replying to suggested that this was caused by algorithmic advertising, which is a non-sequitur.

It didn't even begin to suggest it was caused by algorithmic advertising. What it suggested was people to actually learn something about the world around them. Because we literally have jobs that at one point started as diverse/female dominated and then marketed exclusively at males. For example, IT/programming. Also, a lot of "traditional" roles don't need additional algorithmic biases to stay the same.

A comment asserted that natural evolution of AI algos would result in women getting fewer ads for mechanic jobs, because society has that bias. You responded with:

> Nope. What you eventually get is women not getting a variety of jobs they could apply to and a death of men in professions that actually need more men (e.g. nurses, teachers etc.)

"What you eventually get" suggests that using algorithms leads to gender discrepancies. I'm saying gender discrepancies existed long prior to the algorithms. I'm not saying gender discrepancies are good (although I do think they are inevitable), I'm just saying they are the cause, rather than the effect, of the algorithm.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but: This is actually a thorny problem. Say you have an advertising system that knows nothing about a user’s gender. This system, by construction, cannot vary its ad selections based on gender. But the system does remember whether users have expressed interest in the ads it has previously shown them. Now say you have a job that in general appeals to one gender almost exclusively. The system will, given ti…

Taken to its logical conclusion you essentially have to make targeted ads illegal. Now it's gender, next it's race, then it's socioeconomic standing. Then it's age. Etc etc.

> you essentially have to make targeted ads illegal

Sounds like a win to me.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the complexity of the words that's causing the misunderstanding. It's getting down to ground truth about what the job searching experience is like for actual individuals that will be impacted by this legislation. So the hypothesis is that there are jobs that people will pay money to advertise for but won't place on a free job board to be found by interested parties? There also seems to be a hypothesis that s…

I will have to repeat myself, because I already answered this above. The fact that paid ads for jobs exist is clear indication that „free job boards“ channel doesn’t perform well enough, so employers are ready to pay extra. Paid job ads market has not gone in first few months, it is sustainable, i.e. people continue to pay because they have satisfactory conversion. It’s already proven by market that pull+push perform…

I understand what you're saying, and appreciate your patience. I think it boils down to the fact that I just don't see this as a problem. Some people see ads that others don't. Not all opportunities are spread equally. There's a lot of unfairness just built-in by the roll of the dice. Banning demographic targeting of Facebook job ads isn't going to be a significant contributor here, in my estimation.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#156
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious at all. I would never count on my children getting their role models from their daycare providers.

every adult the children come in contact with is a role model. children don't select their role models. the amount of time that children spend in kindergarten and school makes that inevitable. for good and for bad. you can't not count on children getting their role models from there, but you can't even avoid it. children need role models from both genders. and if there is no gender parity (or something reasonably clo…

I've thought a bit about this since you made the comment, and I think your point about education in particular has a lot of merit. I would normally dispute how you phrased your last sentence, but I've noticed this decline in how boys perform in school, and also noticed that the teaching profession is highly gendered. Thanks for the discussion, you've given me a bunch to think about.
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