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Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

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Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#151

Post by Scoundreller »

elicash wrote: post #71
Forgeties79 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what sounds like an Ocean's Eleven film plot, prosecutors say these "unwitting" victims were cheated out of at least $7m (£5.25m) in poker games - with one person losing at least $1.8m. Definitely a lot of work but that seems like a half decent payday to me.

More than 30 arrests, and the scheme dates back to as early as 2019. The article says "A cut OF THE PROFITS went to those who helped in the plot," implying that the $7m wasn't truly profit but actually revenue? The writing is unclear to me. I'm not sure if this is before paying out to 30+ people over several years, or after, but article implies before, that it's how much was taken from victims. That I think makes the…

There may be more victims. I doubt it’s based on a thorough audit of accounting, just those that put in a complaint. But how do you verify a complaint?

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#152

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #33
arresin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like so much work for relatively so little payoff. There’s a lesson here for non criminals also.

> In what sounds like an Ocean's Eleven film plot, prosecutors say these "unwitting" victims were cheated out of at least $7m (£5.25m) in poker games - with one person losing at least $1.8m. Definitely a lot of work but that seems like a half decent payday to me.

Wasn’t there just a pair of people that walked $100 million euros out of the Louvre?

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#153

Post by sosojxbx »

cool_man_bob wrote: post #44
mschuster91 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diminished? More like, matured into white collar crime. There's no need to murder people on the street any more, that kind of dirty work is left to some random Southern American cartels, and the white collar crime brings in more than enough profit while also being way less risky should the feds catch up on it.

> More like, matured into white collar crime. Honestly this is the first “advanced” mafia scheme I’ve heard of in a while. Last time I heard about a mafia crime it was a very sloppy hit that sounded more like what you hear from teenagers in Chicago shooting at each other. Though tbf it could easily have always been like that and I’m just blinded my media bias about a group of people I’ve never known form a time I’ve…

[flagged]

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#154

Post by jimbokun »

prodigycorp wrote: post #57
mschuster91 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diminished? More like, matured into white collar crime. There's no need to murder people on the street any more, that kind of dirty work is left to some random Southern American cartels, and the white collar crime brings in more than enough profit while also being way less risky should the feds catch up on it.

I don't know if I buy that. If we were to put this in white collar terms, we'd all be questioning Tim Cook if he decided that selling ice cream was a great resource allocation decision.

What business would you take your organized crime organization into for maximal returns?

Just stick everything in the S&P 500?

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#155

Post by jimbokun »

arresin wrote: post #31
QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #25

This scheme doesn’t really make sense. Once you’ve convinced a wealthy person to play at your underground poker table, you’ve already won - just play better poker than them, ultra wealthy fish don’t have time to learn to play perfect poker and you do. Trying to extract slightly more money per hand via x ray tables etc kills the golden goose and doesn’t even necessarily increase total winnings, since it makes you win…

It seems like so much work for relatively so little payoff. There’s a lesson here for non criminals also.

Seems pretty clear to me the risk and excitement of the scheme was probably a big part of the appeal for these people, as much as the total cash amount they took home.

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#156

Post by im3w1l »

ClarityJones wrote: post #55
Aurornis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want the government policing what is and isn't fair in a poker / NBA / etc game. Operating a business that defrauds people is the domain of government enforcement. I think you’re trying to reduce this to some sort of small scale friendly poker game between friends. It was not. It was an organized crime business operation that was systematically committing fraud. Fraud is illegal and within scope of governme…

The raison d'etre for the offense of fraud is to protect commerce. The state / society needs to enforce a basic level of trust for Business A to buy widgets from Business B, and for Customer C to be employed, etc. Betting on sports / poker / etc. is not part of that. Nobody is creating anything of value when you spin the roulette wheel. At best, the house wins and most players lose... and that is a harm to society. A…

If the police don't police it then the marks will pay someone to whack the cheaters.

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#157

Post by smallstepforman »

This can be done with no tech at legit casinos. Just have a group of people with a predetermined “tell” system so that only the best hand in the group competes against the fish. In a 4 player game, with 3 teamplayers and 1 fish, thats 75% of games you’ll win. With zero tech.

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#158

Post by kasey_junk »

evan_ wrote: post #146
kasey_junk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An nba coach was one of 30 people indicted in the scheme. He made about 5m a year at his straight job.

$5M is a lot unless you have a crippling gambling addiction.

It’s not so much the absolute amount as the comparative one.

Just extorting Chauncey Billips seems like a better ROI than the whole caper if you’ve got some hold on him.

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#159

Post by capncleaver »

jm4 wrote: post #150
everdrive wrote: post #75

This is probably a very HN comment, but I cannot imagine why people actually like gambling and poker: - high likelihood you lose money - the point of the game is to lie to friends and strangers - you're stuck sitting at a table and following rules for hours - the only victory condition is that you take money from other people

Poker is a great game. There are so many aspects to it where you can go down a rabbit hole of strategy to improve your game - there's math, making decisions with incomplete information, deduction, reading people, all kinds of non-verbal communication, etc. Although there's chance involved, it is undoubtedly a skill game. The gambling is one of the unfortunate aspects, but it just doesn't play the same without some mo…

Yes. See 'Thinking in Bets' by Annie Duke for a good summary of why Poker is interesting / useful. World is Casino!

Blood on the Clocktower is great! My 15yo son is always trying to get a group of 8+ together for a game.

Came here to recommend Skull, a quick and easy to learn bluffing game, of which the designer said he was aiming for 'the feelings of poker without the money or luck' and I would say succeeded.

Re: Poker fraud used X-ray tables, high-tech glasses and NBA players

#160

Post by JohnMakin »

_the_inflator wrote: post #112
ecshafer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FBI is going to take time building up the case, flipping people, getting recordings, and trying to get as many people involved to not just stop the games but hopefully take down the entire crime families involved. LA Poker pros will start talking as soon as they suspect something fishy.

Exactly. Structures, men behind, organizations involved, networks and other crimes indicated or discovered for example money laundering, betting. It takes time to build a case. Some laws need people working together and a one time event testing a new table and accidentally having lots of cash in the bags as well as so-called famous people showing up can simply happen by chance. It is complicated.

I'm not sure I believe this. It seems you can just walk into one of these places and roll the whole place, confiscate electronics, and make all the necessary connections fairly quickly. These games aren't a secret and never have been.

I don't like the private (illegal) scene because it's killed action in casinos and games I used to love playing in. The risk to me of breaking the law, being robbed/scammed, or worse is not worth it to play in these games and I wish they'd go away.

Even the mafia angle - the NY families must have fallen a long way if they're resorting to high profile but ultimately petty scams like this. This seems like PR for the FBI and nothing more, like I said up thread this has been common knowledge for years.

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