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Doomsday scoreboard

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Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#151

Post by kulahan »

fluoridation wrote: post #150
svieira wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is both things in the same way at the same time Not quite. He has a divine nature and a human nature. There is only one person, two natures, analogous to one person two job titles. He has both natures, fully. > Did he die or didn't he? Having two natures, he can experience things that people without two natures cannot experience. Like the experience of death in His human nature that in no way affected His divine…

>Not quite. [...] He has both natures, fully. You're contradicting yourself. >analogous to "experiencing censure as a judge, but still being able to practice medicine" That's only possible because, as I said, being a judge is not the totality of a person. If you strip a judge of his title the parts of him that are a person still remain. If you strip a person of their humanity then there's nothing left, because there'…

> So then how can it die? If he was just an immortal soul in a mortal body then he was just a regular human.

He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object. Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#152

Post by krapp »

kulahan wrote: post #151
fluoridation wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not quite. [...] He has both natures, fully. You're contradicting yourself. >analogous to "experiencing censure as a judge, but still being able to practice medicine" That's only possible because, as I said, being a judge is not the totality of a person. If you strip a judge of his title the parts of him that are a person still remain. If you strip a person of their humanity then there's nothing left, because there'…

> So then how can it die? If he was just an immortal soul in a mortal body then he was just a regular human. He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object . Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

But to be entirely human is to be corrupted by original sin, doomed to judgement and eternal separation from God.

To be entirely divine is to be equal to God, untouched by sin and incorruptible.

These two states cannot coexist within the doctrine itself. Jesus cannot be entirely human and entirely divine any more than matter can be antimatter.

>He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object.

But that makes it not entirely a bush, or else not entirely a fire. Something other than "a burning bush" is going on there. It looks like that, but it cannot be that.

If Jesus' soul wasn't corrupted by sin like any other mortal human then he wasn't entirely human. If Jesus was entirely human, he cannot also be divine, since God cannot coexist with sin. If Jesus can be both, then original sin is not an immutable transgression and the persistent state of evil and God's eternal judgement are simply arbitrary, and God can make exceptions whenever He likes.

Which is the actual answer because there are instances in the Bible of humans who just ascend to Heaven because God liked them, despite that supposedly being existentially impossible. God simply sometimes bends the rules, He just won't do so for you or I.

Assuming one wants to take all of this seriously and assume the Bible has univocality and try to interpret mythology with logic, which to me always seems like a bad idea.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#153

Post by fluoridation »

kulahan wrote: post #151
fluoridation wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not quite. [...] He has both natures, fully. You're contradicting yourself. >analogous to "experiencing censure as a judge, but still being able to practice medicine" That's only possible because, as I said, being a judge is not the totality of a person. If you strip a judge of his title the parts of him that are a person still remain. If you strip a person of their humanity then there's nothing left, because there'…

> So then how can it die? If he was just an immortal soul in a mortal body then he was just a regular human. He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object . Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

>the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object

A "burning bush that isn't consumed" has at least the excuse of being a literary device. The narrator is describing what he sees in front of him, not describing the process at the physical level, so we can imagine that the bush wasn't literally on fire, but rather surrounded by some mystical flame, or shining, or whatever we can dream up.

The story of Jesus isn't like this. Jesus is supposed to have literally died. There's no possible metaphor there. In Christian theology Jesus is a literal scapegoat; he has to have died, as in his vital processes ending and his soul leaving his body to go to the afterlife. If he didn't do that after being tortured, crucified, and stabbed, then he wasn't fully human.

>Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

Exactly. So where's Jesus' uncorrupted, divine, lifeless body? Don't tell me it ascended to heaven, because normal human bodies don't do that.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#154

Post by svieira »

fluoridation wrote: post #150
svieira wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is both things in the same way at the same time Not quite. He has a divine nature and a human nature. There is only one person, two natures, analogous to one person two job titles. He has both natures, fully. > Did he die or didn't he? Having two natures, he can experience things that people without two natures cannot experience. Like the experience of death in His human nature that in no way affected His divine…

>Not quite. [...] He has both natures, fully. You're contradicting yourself. >analogous to "experiencing censure as a judge, but still being able to practice medicine" That's only possible because, as I said, being a judge is not the totality of a person. If you strip a judge of his title the parts of him that are a person still remain. If you strip a person of their humanity then there's nothing left, because there'…

> A normal person according to Christianity is closer to having two natures in the way you describe, because their body is mortal while their soul isn't.

AH, THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM! Cartesian dualism isn't the best lens to view human nature through and it makes talking about Christ's nature harder than it needs to be. The human person is a being whose nature is body+soul. The separation of the soul and the body at death is an evil brought about by sin. Put another way, death is injurious to human beings, not natural to them. (See https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3164.htm#article1).

Jesus is fully man. His human nature is body+soul. His human soul is immortal, as all human souls are. Unlike other human beings (other than Adam and Eve before they sinned) He was not subject to death as a punishment for sin, but He accepted it on our behalf. When He died, he really died. His soul and His body were separated and for three days He could be spoken of as "not a man". See https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4050.htm#article4 for the details. Follow that up with https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#article4 for how that relates to us. One particularly striking quote - "[c]onsequently, to say that Christ was a man during the three days of His death simply and without qualification, is erroneous. Yet it can be said that He was "a dead man" during those three days."

Jesus is also fully God. His divine nature is perfect and unchanging. His divine nature is immutable (not merely immortal) and was not subject to death. Thus Jesus was subject to death in His human nature not in His divine nature.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#155

Post by svieira »

krapp wrote: post #152
kulahan wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So then how can it die? If he was just an immortal soul in a mortal body then he was just a regular human. He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object . Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

But to be entirely human is to be corrupted by original sin, doomed to judgement and eternal separation from God. To be entirely divine is to be equal to God, untouched by sin and incorruptible. These two states cannot coexist within the doctrine itself. Jesus cannot be entirely human and entirely divine any more than matter can be antimatter. >He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses withou…

> But to be entirely human is to be corrupted by original sin, doomed to judgement and eternal separation from God.

This is false, fortunately. "Human" and "sin" are not necessary to each other. Sin is not natural to man. The gift of original justice could not be passed on from Adam to his children because he threw it away. This lack of a gift is what is called "original sin" and its effects include all of the disordered expressions we find ourselves inclined to from birth. But this lack of a gift is not necessary to being human.

Which allows God to take on human nature without being in the state of sin ("like us in all things but sin"), but accepting the punishment for sin (death) to redeem us and offer a new gift of mercy that restores the original gift of justice for those who accept it. Since God is outside of time, He can even give the fruits of that gift "before" that gift is realized in time (Elijah, Mary).

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#156

Post by fluoridation »

svieira wrote: post #154
fluoridation wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not quite. [...] He has both natures, fully. You're contradicting yourself. >analogous to "experiencing censure as a judge, but still being able to practice medicine" That's only possible because, as I said, being a judge is not the totality of a person. If you strip a judge of his title the parts of him that are a person still remain. If you strip a person of their humanity then there's nothing left, because there'…

> A normal person according to Christianity is closer to having two natures in the way you describe, because their body is mortal while their soul isn't. AH, THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM! Cartesian dualism isn't the best lens to view human nature through and it makes talking about Christ's nature harder than it needs to be. The human person is a being whose nature is body+soul. The separation of the soul and the body at deat…

I'm not going to respond to any arguments that rest on the veracity of mythology (such as the garden of Eden). I'm only interested in the internal consistency of Christian doctrine.

>Jesus is also fully God. His divine nature is perfect and unchanging. His divine nature is immutable (not merely immortal) and was not subject to death. Thus Jesus was subject to death in His human nature not in His divine nature.

This is maddening. Okay, so these are the logical relationships between the terms,

* Jesus is fully God.

* God is immutable.

* Something immutable is also immortal (and by contraposition, something mortal is not immutable).

* Jesus is fully man.

* Jesus is mortal and died.

Correct? None of this is in dispute, I assume, since it's what you said. Alright. To this I answer: if Jesus is mortal then he is not immutable, and if he's not immutable then he's not fully God. If you insist he is God then that's a contradiction by the terms you yourself laid out. The supposed two natures don't matter if they lead to this conclusion.

To give a simple analogy, you can make a sword that's sharp only halfway along its length and is blunt the rest of the way. The statements "the sword is sharp" and "the sword is blunt" are both simultaneously true. What you can't do is make a sword that's both sharp and blunt all throughout its length. You can say, "well, God can do the logically impossible". Fine. But then you're telling me that I'm right, that Christian theology does contain contradictions.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#157

Post by kulahan »

fluoridation wrote: post #153
kulahan wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So then how can it die? If he was just an immortal soul in a mortal body then he was just a regular human. He could die in the same way the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object . Divinity is not corrupting or corruptible.

>the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object A "burning bush that isn't consumed" has at least the excuse of being a literary device. The narrator is describing what he sees in front of him, not describing the process at the physical level, so we can imagine that the bush wasn't literally on fire, but rather surrounded by some mystical flame, or shining, or whatever we can dream up. The stor…

It's literally a bush that was on fire which did not corrupt. That was the whole point. It's not a literary device.

Jesus did literally die. His soul and body were uncorruptible. That's why he was able to descend to Hell for three days, and why his fully mortal and fully divine body was able to be raised up. Dying is simply the separation of soul from body. Resurrection is the rejoining of those.

Mortal bodies of all will be raised in the Second Coming. It's not as correct to say normal human bodies don't do that, as it is to say normal human bodies don't do that yet.

So to clarify: just as the bush was literally on fire, yet did not combust, Jesus literally died, yet did not decompose.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#158

Post by kulahan »

fluoridation wrote: post #142
stogot wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have similar concerns about the three in one resonance structures of nitrate? Or are you cherry picking random laws to fit a preconceived position?

I would have personally gone with the particle-wave duality as an example. The day the church successfully uses its position on the divinity of Jesus Christ to engineer something rather than letting it remain as an abstract bit of sophistry, I promise I'll shut up about it.

Are you not aware of the Church's science symposiums?

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#159

Post by fluoridation »

kulahan wrote: post #157
fluoridation wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the bush could burn in front of Moses without becoming a burnt object A "burning bush that isn't consumed" has at least the excuse of being a literary device. The narrator is describing what he sees in front of him, not describing the process at the physical level, so we can imagine that the bush wasn't literally on fire, but rather surrounded by some mystical flame, or shining, or whatever we can dream up. The stor…

It's literally a bush that was on fire which did not corrupt. That was the whole point. It's not a literary device. Jesus did literally die. His soul and body were uncorruptible. That's why he was able to descend to Hell for three days, and why his fully mortal and fully divine body was able to be raised up. Dying is simply the separation of soul from body. Resurrection is the rejoining of those. Mortal bodies of all…

>It's literally a bush that was on fire which did not corrupt.

How can you know that? From within the canon of the text, all we have is Moses' testimony. How can you be so sure that what he described as a burning bush was literally a burning bush, as in the matter of the bush undergoing rapid oxidation without being consumed?

>It's not as correct to say normal human bodies don't do that, as it is to say normal human bodies don't do that yet.

Sure. I'll accept "they don't do that yet". So since they don't do that yet, and they didn't do that during Jesus' times, if Jesus' body did do that, then his body wasn't fully human.

Re: Doomsday scoreboard

#160

Post by fluoridation »

kulahan wrote: post #158
fluoridation wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have personally gone with the particle-wave duality as an example. The day the church successfully uses its position on the divinity of Jesus Christ to engineer something rather than letting it remain as an abstract bit of sophistry, I promise I'll shut up about it.

Are you not aware of the Church's science symposiums?

Are you conflating the propositions "members of the church do science" and "the church has based science on theological doctrine"?
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