Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance • Hacker News Board

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#151

Post by Tharre » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:26 AM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #49

a-french-anon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it be used without a smartphone aka "portable telescreen"? Do they explicitly guarantee this'll remain the case? If not, you're just being hoodwinked via cheap convenience.

The Austrian version (which I use an appreciate a lot) allows some hardware FIDO2 tokens instead of a smartphone. Guarantee? Not by law but it will be hard for them to take that away.

> Guarantee? Not by law but it will be hard for them to take that away.

Last year they removed the ability to register[0] yubikey FIDO2 tokens affected by the EUCLEAK 'vulnerability', despite it not posing any security risk even by their own admission, and nobody seems to have cared. The whole thing screams security theater, they require the much more expensive FIDO2 Level 2 keys for no reason (which limited you to just Trustkeys at the time after yubikeys got banned) while their own sites crashes[1] if you give it a secure password.

At the end of the day, if not it's required by law the only other guarantee you have is a broad userbase that will complain if it's taken away and at least at the moment it's clear that no such userbase exists.

[0] https://www.a-trust.at/de/%C3%BCber_uns/newsbereich/20240905...

[1] https://imgur.com/a/Uyjaoa7

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#152

Post by agedclock » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:29 AM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #150

agedclock wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A driving license isn’t sufficient for right to work checks because you can have a driving license without being able to work. I never said that you required a driving license. I said that at driving license was photo-card ID. You need a passport or birth cert and NI number as a British Citizen for a right to work check. Most employers also want proof of address, so bring a utility bill. I've been through this proc…

Your privilege is showing. > You need a passport for a right to work check. I've been through this process about 3 times in the last 5 years. It isn't difficult or onerous. A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people. > You can literally order replacements for these easily. A replacement birth cert can be got for £12.50 and takes 4 days to receive. These are additional c…

> Your privilege is showing.

This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic.

> A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people.

I agree that it is expensive. However you don't require a passport though and you can use a Birth Certificate and something that shows your NI number.

> These are additional costs, it's also an extra £3.50 to find it (taking 15 days), and possibly another £38 to get it quickly.

Ok. So £15. This is not "excessive" cost. Like with many things if you want something done more quickly you are required to pay extra.

If you are looking for work you really should make sure you have these documents as you should know that you are going to need them.

> So yes, these are all costs that add up to exclude people from partaking in society.

It may surprise you that a good number of things require monetary payment in some form or another to partake in society.

It is perfectly reasonable for the government to require basic checks to be carried out before you employed.

> And all of this assumes your employer knows what the hell they're doing. Given the fines are painful, it's entirely possible your employer refuses valid documents "just in case" and sticks to the ones they've relied on in the past.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

That to avoid fines an employer would break the law and not do right to work checks? Or that they are doing a right to work check and do additional checks?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#153

Post by graemep » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:33 AM UTC

Mashimo wrote: post #68

graemep wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means the provider can track you across all those. What you spend, what you read, what medical treatment you have. All just to save carrying a wallet?

They can definitely track when and where you log in. I can't say if there are backdoors in place for them to log in, and if that is (currently) legal. Hospitals and libraries are government run, I would assume even if they had their own login, they could manage to snoop the data, no? These are all online service. So it's not even a wallet argument. But we recently got digital drivers license, which can be used in the…

> Hospitals and libraries are government run

A lot more effort. In the UK public libraries are run by local authorities who do not seem to routinely share that information with other government bodies.

Libraries and hospitals are not purely online services though. I do carry a library card. I do not need one for hospital or doctors appointments.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#154

Post by graemep » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:35 AM UTC

vachina wrote: post #40

graemep wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means the provider can track you across all those. What you spend, what you read, what medical treatment you have. All just to save carrying a wallet?

The provider is the government by the way, and SSO doesn’t give them the ability to track activities beyond where I signed in. It is possible, to trust the government in other parts of world.

> It is possible, to trust the government in other parts of world.

That means trusting all future governments, all layers of government, all govt organisations with access to the data, and all governments they might share data with, and all other organisations they share data with.

You have to trust them to both use data correctly, AND to have sufficient security to keep the data safe while greatly increasing the attack surface.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#155

Post by Xelbair » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:35 AM UTC

agnishom wrote: post #137

Xelbair wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(eg can't work based on visa rules, can't access public/health services at all without legal residency) You aren't a citizen in such case - you aren't legally allowed to do so. This is another issue with law being in power but it's enforcement over the years was spotty - and people just got used to it. What you are saying is that government blocks you from committing a crime - which it should try to do so as governm…

> government blocks you from committing a crime - which it should try to do You may have missed stavros's comment in the parent thread. The fact that the government is not perfect at blocking people from commiting crimes is actually good in some cases

indeed, but the problem isn't from them trying to do so.

It's the success rate that matters.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#156

Post by agedclock » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:38 AM UTC

octo888 wrote: post #144

pjc50 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget needing to get it countersigned by someone sufficiently middle-class. https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications/acce...

> someone sufficiently middle-class. The accuracy of this made me chuckle out loud!

I don't consider a nurse or a pharmacist, or a pub landlord, or someone that own a Limited Company (anyone can setup a LTD) as middle class.

Also what is wrong with being middle-class?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#157

Post by scott_w » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:44 AM UTC

agedclock wrote: post #152

scott_w wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your privilege is showing. > You need a passport for a right to work check. I've been through this process about 3 times in the last 5 years. It isn't difficult or onerous. A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people. > You can literally order replacements for these easily. A replacement birth cert can be got for £12.50 and takes 4 days to receive. These are additional c…

> Your privilege is showing. This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic. > A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people. I agree that it is expensive. However you don't require a passport though and you can use a Birth Certificate and something that shows your NI number .…

> This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic.

Ok, let me break the argument down for you:

1. Person needs job

2. Person doesn't have job

3. Person therefore is low on money

4. Person needs to prove right to work to get job

5. Person needs money to buy proof of right to work (+ time to receive it)

6. Person needs money

7. See 2 and 3

Your privilege is what blinds you to a simple process.

> If you are looking for work you really should make sure you have these documents as you should know that you are going to need them.

This is what I mean by "your privilege is showing."

> That to avoid fines an employer would break the law and not do right to work checks? Or that they are doing a right to work check and do additional checks?

Read it again: they're skipping the checks and just using the one they know (passport) because they don't know if other legal forms of documentation are good enough. I know this is going to blow your mind but plenty of employers have no idea what the laws are. You might say "well that's on the employer," but it's the person who needs the job who suffers.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#158

Post by user3939382 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:47 AM UTC

phatfish wrote: post #138

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

Agreed, all the scaremongering is hilarious. As if a digital ID is what is going to be used to repress the common (wo)man. News flash, if your "liberal western government" wanted to they have more than enough tools to do it already. See all the repressive governments with institutions stuck in the 60s. - Don't trust corporations that you have no control over. - Vote wisely for the government you do have some control…

I don’t think it’s scaremongering or hilarious. I think you’re weak. Oh it’s nice to have this, so I’ll relinquish my sovereignty, if you can’t beat em join em. Enshrined in a false dichotomy: how about we don’t trust the corporations OR the government?

As far as their “tools” I invented a stack which demolishes all digital surveillance. The real point is we need people like me not people like you, then we’d actually have solutions to these problems. YOU are the problem. Your weakness and laziness is what enables these horrible patterns.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#159

Post by kkfx » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 10:51 AM UTC

Digital ID is logic, in a digital world, what's not logic is centralized digital IDs instead of open, public chain-of-trust ones.

Similar for many other digital things: they could be good or bad depending on how you do them. As long as 99% have no clue of IT it's pretty normal that digitization evolve against the common interests, when people get a bit of knowledge then things change.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#160

Post by Muromec » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:07 AM UTC

bapak wrote: post #88

hkt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone has a smartphone. A substantial number of especially older people don't. Plus poor people, and just.. well, offline people whose lives are much more communal than ours. The requirement for a hundreds-of-units-of-currency device to prove who you are is bonkers.

Sorry but aluminum foil level of thinking to me. First of all, my digital ID is still a physical card. Second, you're on the wrong forum complaining that people need a device to do things in life.

>Second, you're on the wrong forum complaining that people need a device to do things in life.

I think it's exactly right forum, because we know how unreliable and unmagical are those things and are in a good position to judge the risk of relying on them too much.