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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#151

Post by AdieuToLogic »

bigiain wrote: post #122
ajross wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the enforcers dgaf about you. This is the attitude that lands otherwise-normal-seeming people in jail. They dgaf about you until they do. Maybe the prosecutor needs an easy win. Maybe they have a wealthy patron you offended. You don't know. And casual cheating becomes criminal very quickly. Charlie Javice, to get back to the core subject, seemed to genuinely think she was on the right side of the line. All she was…

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

> They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail ...

No legitimate business person I have ever met holds this position, if for no other reason than criminal acts pierce the corporate veil[0].

> ... so long as the investors and their staff are all insulated from the illegal behavior and jail time risks.

There is no such thing.

0 - https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2014/03/27/the-three-justifi...

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#152

Post by renewiltord »

tverbeure wrote: post #126
DennisP wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cases in the article were software engineers in the US, and at FTX. Two were engineering directors and the third was a senior engineer. If any of them didn't have plenty of emergency funds set aside, they should have seriously rethought their spending.

I know plenty of people who saved for years to get a downpayment for a house and then used all of that for just that. After that, it will take a while to replenish their emergency fund with very little margin of error. A job loss would be devastating.

Indeed, any sufficiently wise man would prefer to place himself in a position of precariousness so that all his acts of crime can be attributed to the man who employs him. Only the financially careful face dilemmas. The spendthrift fears no judgment from society having forced his choice function into an identity of his employer's.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#153

Post by Spivak »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #5
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

The code of ethics would need to be absolute, enforceable, unambiguous (without lawyers to interpret), and universal to really eliminate these activities.

Which is why I think the ACM's code of ethics is good for someone looking to be introspective about right and wrong but would be terrible as the basis for a legal code of ethics.

The scope would necessarily be narrower and "permit" more unethical behavior but for violations to be enforced by peers it has to survive the eventual "oh you're making a big fuss over nothing, you won't lose your license" problem.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#154

Post by Spivak »

rossdavidh wrote: post #131

Having worked as a programmer for twenty years, most of that as a contractor (hence a different employer about once a year), I have never been asked to do anything illegal. This isn't said to mean no one is, but rather that, if you are asked to do something illegal, it is weird. It isn't the normal, messed up capitalist system, it isn't typical bureaucratic nonsense, it isn't the imperfect state of the world we live…

Unethical, morally questionable, in poor taste, impolite, unprofessional, or underhanded is pretty normal and you can find it in every job in every industry and you might not even realize without the benefit of hindsight that what you did was any of those things. But illegal feels different when it happens, even if you don't know exactly the law something will be off. You'll be apprehensive in a way you weren't before, people around you will act different, this little pit of anxiety will form in your stomach even if you haven't done it yet.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#155

Post by snypher »

em-bee wrote: post #80
surgical_fire wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"losing your job", for a lot of people, is extremely effective coercion. We are not talking about luxury here. A lot of people depend on their salary to pay rent and put food on the table. This is even more pressing if you have a family that depends on you, if you are in need of healthcare, etc. What your post fails to recognize is that in the current system, labor is already a form of coercion. You need to work beca…

If you can avoid those even when unemployed that would be all developed countries except the united states

380k homeless in UK. 262k in Germany. 122k Australia. 650k in USA. The per capita math is left for the reader but I don't believe there is much distinction here .

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#156

Post by bobsmooth »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #124
rahimnathwani wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean: A) Software developers should be free to sign a code of ethics, or B) Software developers should be compelled to sign a code of ethics, and be prevented from working if they refuse to sign, or C) Something else.

In Canada, (B) is how it works for engineers, including software engineers.

The calling of the engineer is not required but you are bound to ethical guidelines as a PEO.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#157

Post by MangoToupe »

bix6 wrote: post #141
bigiain wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

So much

Part of the value that VCs are supposed to provide society is being more skeptical than this.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#158

Post by rswail »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

In the US it's unconstitutional for the government to do that, it's what the ban of laws of attainder is partially about.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#159

Post by gljiva »

salawat wrote: post #147
ghssds wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Ah, but the family of the canceled policyholders should suffer for losing their mother/sister/daughters? Make decisions to harm others, don't be surprised if it blows back in kind. Golden Rule is there for a reason. Treat others as you would have them do unto you.

Have the families of those "insurers" made a decision to harm others?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#160

Post by stack_framer »

I worked at NS8 in 2020 for just four months before it collapsed and the CEO was arrested for defrauding investors of $123,000,000. Just a few months ago, I got a modest payout due to a lawsuit over NS8 laying off almost everyone with just three days notice. It was very stressful to be without a job in the middle of Covid!
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