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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#151

Post by patrickk »

arcanemachiner wrote: post #34
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

For those with more time than money, you can build an open-source Advantage 360 clone for around $100 USD: - https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1 I'm not the creator, but I do have a repo with a purchase list that shows what stuff to buy from AliExpress: - https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras It takes about 10 hours to put together. You'll also need some nerd tools: access to a 3D printer, soldering iro…

There are some great 3D printing services out there for those who don’t have access to a 3D printer locally. You can upload the CAD file and get an instant quote.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#152

Post by Symbiote »

jval43 wrote: post #122
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

That is exactly my experience, although a bit earlier. I landed on a Kinesis Advantage 2, at the time as the 360 wasn't even announced yet. Spent entirely too much money on other ones. There's a reason the Kinesis Advantage line has been around for decades. It really is a just a great ergonomic shape without many compromises. And mine has held up 7 years now with no issues. Anyone looking for pain relief should reall…

If cost is a concern, and you are an employee, please ask if work will pay. Also ask if they have a similar keyboard lying unused in a cupboard.

I'll buy a €450 keyboard for any employee that asks for one. It's easily justified compared to the loss of productivity from RSI or similar.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#153

Post by marginalia_nu »

Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I fairly recently got a Glove 80, still not entirely used to the thing but I can certainly tell my wrists are a lot happier. Was also looking at the Advantage 360, but with shipping it's nearly twice as expensive where I live so it was hard to motivate.

Before that I was using a Keychron Q11, which is a split keyboard with a regular staggered layout. That helped my shoulders feel better, I have a pretty broad frame and regular keyboards put me in a kinda t-rex position, but my left wrist in particular was killing me since I couldn't type a fair few keys on the left side, c, x, z, and q, without constantly adjusting my hand position.

Must say that the Glove 80 is growing on me as one heck of a comfortable experience. No idea how durable it is, it's certainly a light keyboard, though at the same time I'm not sure how well that actually conveys build quality. Like would the solder joints really have been more resistant to drops and impacts if it had a steel plate in the bottom like the Kinesis does?

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#154

Post by Symbiote »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #83
Lunamare wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I thought about it was that I would gladly pay $500 to have a reduction in RSI symptoms, let alone prevent them beforehand. Not to mention the potential loss of enjoyment & employment from pain during computer use. And as such, I'm an extremely satisfied Advantage 360 Pro user. The Adv 360 + a mouse side-grade massively reduced pains in my hands/wrists to the point where I don't notice any issues 99% of the t…

Totally agree that it is worth the investment and who knows, maybe I will even get one one day. But I’m definitely getting some sticker shock regardless haha

I got sticker shock when I first bought an Apple Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.

It is, even in the USA, $129, compared to the $20 or so I'd otherwise expect to pay when buying a computer for a new employee.

Here in Denmark the RRP is 1699DKK = $267 = €227. (Still $215 without the VAT.)

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#155

Post by npstr »

I had some RSI at the start of corona from too much home office + gaming, what actually helped was getting a trackball (Kensington Slimblade Pro) for $work tasks.

Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc. I think most of what is told and sold in ergonomics is snake oil. I don't believe ortholinear is any good for it, and minimizing movement also seems really questionable to me. I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs.

I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard. I have to accommodate Linux ($work), Windows (gaming), Mac (personal projects, open uni). That's already challenging enough to get these have similar shortcuts. I use a keychron K5 pro that supports all OSs. I can work efficiently in all situations, with all OSs, with just a single screen. Having a more specialized keyboard (or otherwise setup, like relying too heavily on multi-monitors), wouid overall surely be detrimental, during the times I could not use it.

What I've learned to avoid pain: Wrists should be straight. For me, a slim keyboard helps to achieve that, flat on the table. Hands should have some room apart, open chest. Small keyboards are bad for that, you'll want a 100% one, or a split. Do some lifting, have some muscles. Try a trackball, you might love it. Switch how you are sitting. The best sitting position is the next one. Get up to think, go for breaks. Don't overly specialize into some local/global optimum that is a moving target over your lifetime. Use defaults. Mostly boring setup with some minor personal tweaks can go a long way.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#156

Post by Symbiote »

I put together https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ a while ago to help decide between ergonomic keyboards.

However, it's not become a hobby, and I'm satisfied with the keyboards I bought in 2019 and have no plans to replace them.

If anyone is interested in taking over the site, I'm willing to transfer the repository, which should mean GitHub make an HTTP redirect.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#157

Post by marginalia_nu »

dotancohen wrote: post #144
bsmith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love my Dygma Defy: https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy

Thanks, but the Defy lacks Function keys.

These kinds of keyboards are programmable, function keys can be added to a custom layer, just as any other keys. The entire point is to make it so you don't constantly have to be reaching for keys, to bring them closer to your fingers (which can stay relatively still).

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#158

Post by psoundy »

microtonal wrote: post #112
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels. Glove80 has a better key well and thumb cluster for most people though. I have made a detailed comparison here: https://danieldk.eu/MoErgo-Glove80-Review Also agree with the sibling commenters. In order, get: - Help from an expert/exercise/do very regular breaks. - A properly adjustab…

I used kinesis advantage for 15 years, switched to a glove80 for the past 2, but recently went back to kinesis with an advantage2. The glove80 is very nice, but my hands are big enough that the kinesis thumb cluster works better for me and the cherry mx brown switches are much more satisfying than the low profile chocs.

So ymmv, but for those with larger hands, it may make sense to try a kinesis.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#159

Post by JSR_FDED »

I had rapidly worsening RSI, thought my career as a developer was ending. Switching to VIM completely solved it. Not to take away from what fancy keyboards can do for you, but if you were already contemplating VIM then this would be a great (additional) reason to try it.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#160

Post by kalaksi »

Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I have had ctrl and caps lock swapped for a long time. The default layout sucks for today's needs.
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