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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#151

Post by twodave »

user_7832 wrote: post #45
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

> However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity... ...Otherwise we are no different than Crusaders and Jihadists. And do you suggest a crusader or jihadist or keep this point of view as well? They too might think they are in the right and should keep their (religious etc) integrity, surely? Everyone/most people always assume they are always…

The point is I don’t have to agree with their views. Why would I want them to keep views I disagree with? This isn’t about what I’d want them to do, but rather accepting that people believe things that sound crazy to me, and it’s still up to me to find a way to live with and love them.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#152

Post by sethammons »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #148
sethammons wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all. Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges. I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

The problem there though is that data completely breaks down for anything historical, philosophical, cultural, religious, miraculous, or otherwise requiring “faith.” Anything that is not a repeatable event under a microscope has no “data” and never will.

I am not a "data or it didn't happen" person. I am sure I have magical beliefs that don't play out in reality.

I'm not convinced by the argument that this falls apart for your categories. Logic and reasoning still exists. Philosophy can be argued and principals agreed upon. Historical things leave traces. And I am appalled by blind faith.

At some point, our society and ways of doing things boils down to trust or faith. I trust that people thinking about things, trying to validate those things, and who employ a way to change their minds will move towards "more correct" understandings. People knew not to hang around people with the plague before germ theory.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#153

Post by naasking »

Nevermark wrote: post #56
naasking wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There you go, a time when you'll definitely lie and cheat! I don't think this is the win you think it is. Kantians and se deontologists will absolutely say that no, you cannot lie and cheat even in that scenario. You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties.

> You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties. The universe doesn't respect that viewpoint. There is no mechanism in reality or life that prevents hard tradeoffs from having to be made.

> The universe doesn't respect that viewpoint. There is no mechanism in reality or life that prevents hard tradeoffs from having to be made.

What the universe does or doesn't respect has no bearing on what is or is not right / good.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#154

Post by TeMPOraL »

sethammons wrote: post #152
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there though is that data completely breaks down for anything historical, philosophical, cultural, religious, miraculous, or otherwise requiring “faith.” Anything that is not a repeatable event under a microscope has no “data” and never will.

I am not a "data or it didn't happen" person. I am sure I have magical beliefs that don't play out in reality. I'm not convinced by the argument that this falls apart for your categories. Logic and reasoning still exists. Philosophy can be argued and principals agreed upon. Historical things leave traces. And I am appalled by blind faith. At some point, our society and ways of doing things boils down to trust or fait…

I used to look at things this way too, but I now see this picture as incomplete, missing a crucial detail. There exist another dimension to our reality, beyond the inanimate, objective one we normally study through physics and life sciences. That dimension is the social dimension. It has its own rules, and for everyone at almost all times, it's more directly relevant to survival and happiness than actual physics.

An example I also posted in another comment: you can be objectively right about the color of the sky, but that won't save you from becoming dinner to wild animals after your people cast you out for believing differently.

We've evolved to navigate this social dimension as much as physical one, because we're social creatures and other people have forever been a part of our environment. Recognizing that, and recognizing that this social reality is more relevant than physical one, is IMO the key to understanding why people behave they do - why they believe obvious bullshit, and refuse to align their beliefs with the truth of physical reality, despite ample and indisputable evidence. It's the key to understand why seemingly smart people say and believe dumb things, especially after they start a career in sales or politics. It's all because, for almost everyone and in almost every case, being seen as in good standing in one's social circles is much more directly relevant to everyday experience and long and happy life, than getting some facts right.

Having that understanding, it becomes more apparent than just about the only way to convince people to change their mind, is to make things relevant to them personally in either dimension, and at a larger scale, to bring those two dimension more in alignment.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#155

Post by naasking »

komali2 wrote: post #42
naasking wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There you go, a time when you'll definitely lie and cheat! I don't think this is the win you think it is. Kantians and se deontologists will absolutely say that no, you cannot lie and cheat even in that scenario. You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties.

Have you ever met in real life a person who wouldn't lie to the axe murderer, because of their Kantian values? If a Kantian can be put into a situation where their morals would require them to say the word that gives up Anne Frank, we can safely say it's a bad moral system.

> If a Kantian can be put into a situation where their morals would require them to say the word that gives up Anne Frank, we can safely say it's a bad moral system.

Not unless you can present some proof of this. Your implicit assumption that we should care about outcomes over principles has its own set of moral failures, like the repugnant conclusion.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#156

Post by throw3141592 »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #115
antonvs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like saying "murder is wrong", the wrongness is a part of the definition of the word. There's no need for evidence or logic, beyond understanding what a definition is.

Neither rape nor murder are inherently, definitionally wrong. There are situations in extremis where murder and rape are considered justifiable: in war, murder is often praised; and in an "everyone else is dead, humanity will go extinct" situation (e.g. the subjective belief of Lot's daughters, according to some traditions, in Genesis 19:31–36), rape might¹ be considered permissible. And both words are used to refer…

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#157

Post by lukan »

DonHopkins wrote: post #139
Lewton wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). or anyone who's been in a plane?

Square has. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

Wow, that is a weird and interesting plot, thanks for that, I take it as a recommendation.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#158

Post by throw3141592 »

jhanschoo wrote: post #131
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither rape nor murder are inherently, definitionally wrong. There are situations in extremis where murder and rape are considered justifiable: in war, murder is often praised; and in an "everyone else is dead, humanity will go extinct" situation (e.g. the subjective belief of Lot's daughters, according to some traditions, in Genesis 19:31–36), rape might¹ be considered permissible. And both words are used to refer…

You are mistaken. > in war, murder is often praised; The killing of an enemy combatant, for example, is usually lawful, praised and not considered murder. Generally speaking, the killing of a civilian is sometimes a war crime and considered a murder. You also have a lot to say on the nuanced ethics of killing and on sexual violence, but these deal with the underlying concepts themselves and the words don't matter; in…

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#159

Post by throw3141592 »

twodave wrote: post #17
dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

[dead]

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#160

Post by krageon »

lukan wrote: post #108
monkey_monkey wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this even mean? Do you think the earth is flat? Who the fuck cares about Telegram groups in this context?

It means I debated very often with weird people and the proof that I did, is that I don't feel the need to make the poster above believe, that I actually did that. (Otherwise I would have shared links where you can find me debating the topic at length with various people) Because indeed, most flat earthers are immune to reason as they are in the realm of irrationality. So at some point someone needs to accept that an…

Whether or not you believe the earth is flat is a yes or no question, but you responded with a paragraph that wasn't a real answer. This reads as defensive, which leads a reasonable person to believe that you are in fact a flat earther.
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