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The elegance of movement in Silksong

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Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#151

Post by sunrunner »

gyomu wrote: post #146
crooked-v wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silksong has the basic issue that it was effectively designed as extended content for people who had already beaten the secret harder stuff in Hollow Knight, rather than as its own game or even as a sequel for people who had "just" beaten the basic game in HK.

Everyone repeats this, but is there any information that confirms it? Yes, it started as a DLC for Hollow Knight - but the devs have known for the past 5 years that it would be a standalone sequel. Is there any evidence that they designed it as "extended content for people who had already beaten the secret harder stuff", rather than approached it as a game on its own right?

A lot of people coming to Silksong having played Hollow Knight seems to be saying this, but also seem to have forgotten that pretty much exactly the same things were said about Hollow Knight when it first came out over eight years ago.

Almost like the collective memory of Hollow Knight's difficulty has dulled over time as people have, over the eight years, dare I say it, git good...

Are there things that are measurably more difficult? Perhaps. Common enemies can now do two masks worth of damage which before was relegated to boss specials, so environments feel more dangerous. This has always been a significant part of the early game, as an extra mask in Hollow Knight was significant enough to keep you safer from regular enemies, but in Silksong once you get hold of an extra mask you go from being able to be killed in three hits to...being able to be killed in three hits.

So I think there are things that make it feel tougher. At the same time though, all the same things were said before about the difficulty, about not knowing where to go (Silksong gives even fewer clues I'd say), but people persisted through areas, learnt boss patterns, and eventually just learnt the game up until P5.

And in a few years the collective memory of Silksong's early game difficulty will have gone as people adapted to it.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#152

Post by SyrupThinker »

viraptor wrote: post #112
SyrupThinker wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it if this constitutes an hour of two of your time, most of which is not actually fighting the boss, but walking back to it?

Are there actually long runbacks in Silksong? I'm not that far in, but so far they've all been maybe 2 screens long at most which you can cross really quickly.

I mean, what does long mean in the grand scheme of things? Is a minute or two long?

I think, no, in a vacuum they are fine, at least up to where I got. But even a short thing can get annoying if you need to do it often enough, which is at least my problem, and apparently also that of other players that don't mind the difficulty.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#153

Post by Gander5739 »

M4v3R wrote: post #143
par wrote: post #15

Cute article but skong isn’t as hard as op makes it out to be. I wonder if he’s played any soulsborne games or even hollow knight. Git gud!!!

Silksong is objectively hard, and if you're trying to argue otherwise you're either the mythical "god gamer" or just trolling. The game is unapologetically hard and punishing right from the beginning. The very second boss you encounter already hits you for 2 masks (which effectively means 3 hits and you're dead), and each time you try to fight him you first have to run back for a minute before you reach him. He even…

The very first boss in Hollow Knight, False Knight, does two masks of damage.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#154

Post by adamors »

testdelacc1 wrote: post #107
TriangleEdge wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoilers: Silksong has arenas with 3 mobs that throw discs plus you. Idk about you, but I can't track 7 things moving at once. This isn't fun. Nor is it challenging, you just have to get lucky. I like Silksong, but the only way some the bosses were made challenging was because of constant adds. Hollow Knight rarely had this.

Have you tried turning the “Backer Credits” setting on? The game reportedly becomes substantially easier afterwards. Source - https://youtu.be/1rsWTBGY_cY?t=777

Rare to see Dunkey mentioned on HN, lovely.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#155

Post by raincole »

TriangleEdge wrote: post #83
furyofantares wrote: post #81

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun. They are meant to delight with their whimsy. Sometimes, yes, they are meant to be challenging. But that challenge is in service of fun. Games, more than any other form of entertainment, offer skill challenges. As they've become more popular they've gotten better ab…

Spoilers: Silksong has arenas with 3 mobs that throw discs plus you. Idk about you, but I can't track 7 things moving at once. This isn't fun. Nor is it challenging, you just have to get lucky. I like Silksong, but the only way some the bosses were made challenging was because of constant adds. Hollow Knight rarely had this.

> This isn't fun. Nor is it challenging, you just have to get lucky

I understand most people don't find it fun. Neither do I.

But saying it's not challenging is just plain wrong. If it were true then the best player would have the same chance to pass it as I do. And it's not the case.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#156

Post by rkomorn »

TriangleEdge wrote: post #83
furyofantares wrote: post #81

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun. They are meant to delight with their whimsy. Sometimes, yes, they are meant to be challenging. But that challenge is in service of fun. Games, more than any other form of entertainment, offer skill challenges. As they've become more popular they've gotten better ab…

Spoilers: Silksong has arenas with 3 mobs that throw discs plus you. Idk about you, but I can't track 7 things moving at once. This isn't fun. Nor is it challenging, you just have to get lucky. I like Silksong, but the only way some the bosses were made challenging was because of constant adds. Hollow Knight rarely had this.

The older I get the more I find boss fights off putting.

I get literally zero satisfaction out of learning whatever pattern you have to learn to perform whatever correct action, at the correct time, you need to defeat a particular boss.

It's just a time consuming chore.

Edit: the "boss" escape sequences in the Ori games were also entirely frustrating and and unsatisfying to me.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#157

Post by slightwinder »

sunrunner wrote: post #151
gyomu wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone repeats this, but is there any information that confirms it? Yes, it started as a DLC for Hollow Knight - but the devs have known for the past 5 years that it would be a standalone sequel. Is there any evidence that they designed it as "extended content for people who had already beaten the secret harder stuff", rather than approached it as a game on its own right?

A lot of people coming to Silksong having played Hollow Knight seems to be saying this, but also seem to have forgotten that pretty much exactly the same things were said about Hollow Knight when it first came out over eight years ago. Almost like the collective memory of Hollow Knight's difficulty has dulled over time as people have, over the eight years, dare I say it, git good... Are there things that are measurab…

It's less that it's harder, but simply very annoying. It has so many broken, twisted concepts even from the beginning. This makes it really not fun to experience, which then makes it's harder to play.

It's obvious why Team Cherry didn't allow pre-sale reviews. It will be interesting to see how successful it will stay in a month, and next year.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#158

Post by scrollaway »

rkomorn wrote: post #156
TriangleEdge wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoilers: Silksong has arenas with 3 mobs that throw discs plus you. Idk about you, but I can't track 7 things moving at once. This isn't fun. Nor is it challenging, you just have to get lucky. I like Silksong, but the only way some the bosses were made challenging was because of constant adds. Hollow Knight rarely had this.

The older I get the more I find boss fights off putting. I get literally zero satisfaction out of learning whatever pattern you have to learn to perform whatever correct action, at the correct time, you need to defeat a particular boss. It's just a time consuming chore. Edit: the "boss" escape sequences in the Ori games were also entirely frustrating and and unsatisfying to me.

Your post could be reworded to talk about learning just any musical instrument.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#159

Post by rkomorn »

scrollaway wrote: post #158
rkomorn wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older I get the more I find boss fights off putting. I get literally zero satisfaction out of learning whatever pattern you have to learn to perform whatever correct action, at the correct time, you need to defeat a particular boss. It's just a time consuming chore. Edit: the "boss" escape sequences in the Ori games were also entirely frustrating and and unsatisfying to me.

Your post could be reworded to talk about learning just any musical instrument.

I think learning to play a musical instrument would actually give me more satisfaction because it would open more doors towards creativity.

But it's all personal of course. :) Some people like boss fights (or Souls-like games) and I'm happy for them.

I just would be happy with a "bypass this" button.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#160

Post by urxvtcd »

wackget wrote: post #72
cousin_it wrote: post #17

I think Hollow Knight and Silksong are mostly special for their art style, the movement feel is pretty average. Among 2D platformers in general, I think the medal for best movement feel goes to the Fancy Pants Adventure series. (You can still play it online on sites that have Flash replacements, start with the 4th game because it has everything.) But that's a deliberately easy game, you just run through the levels an…

Just tried both the ones you mentioned and I have to say I absolutely hate the movement. It is extremely floaty, meaning there is a ton of acceleration and deceleration. Maybe that's the point, but it's not what I enjoy at all. Same reason I didn't enjoy the Ori games.

Yeah, N++ is super floaty, there's A LOT of inertia. It might feel off at the beginning, but when you get the hang of it, it's just beautiful. It's the opposite of twitchy. You work to preserve the momentum through jumps and corners and evasion maneuvers, it's got that sleek race-y feel. I get it, it's not for everyone, but for me it's bonkers good.
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