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Signal Secure Backups

signal.org

151–160 of 460 posts

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#151
post #128

@Signal devs: any reason that the only two options for backup are now "locally" (flexible, but only solves for some use-cases) or "to Signal's special servers" ( not flexible; might be legally impossible for many users to enable)? Because it seems to me that, for much of Signal's (often paranoid) audience, they'd much rather use one of the backup/sync providers they've already verified trust of, than have to addition…

Perhaps they will? > Our future plans include letting you save a secure backup archive to the location of your choosing

A backup option has been missing for years. Future plans on this particular topic seem to take forever.

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#152
post #4

This looks brilliant. I just hope they make it easy to do test restores. In particular, I want to test restore without perturbing my main device. Let me restore using the secret key on a new device. When I install Signal on a computer it won't show me message history. Will backups allow me to view _all_ my message history on a computer? A big screen is very helpful for browsing lots of messages.

Hi there, Signal dev here. You can sort of do this! You can restore on your new device, and while you will be unregistered on your old device, all of the data is still there. So if you see that something is amiss on the new device, you could re-register on your old device and you'd be right back where you started. This is actually one of the ways we test the feature with our own personal data.

[deleted]

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#153

> In the past, if you broke or lost your phone, your Signal message history was gone. this and completly useless multi-device support is the reason I don't use Signal... Telegram is not fully e2ee but it's way more convenient here. Even XMPP with PGP would be lightyears ahead.

This has been the advantage, and the drawback, of Signal's security model from the start.

Everything on Signal (at least the "original" design from a few years ago, this has started to be adjusted with the introduction of usernames and now backups and eventually syncing) is end-to-end encrypted between users, with your original phone acting as the primary communication node doing the encryption. Any other devices like desktops and tablets that get added are replicating from the original node rather than receiving new messages straight from the network.

This offers substantial privacy and security guarantees, at the cost of convenience and portability. It can be contrasted with something like iMessage, before Messages in iCloud was implemented, where every registered device is a full node that receives every new message directly, as long as they're connected at the time that it's sent.

Today's addition brings Signal to where iMessage was originally: each device is backing up their own messages, but those backups aren't syncing with one another. Based on the blog post, the goal is to eventually get Signal to where iMessage is today now that Messages in iCloud is available: all of the devices sync their own message databases with a version in the cloud, which is also end-to-end encrypted with the same guarantees as the messages themselves, but which ensures that every device ends up with the same message history regardless of whether they're connected to receive all of the messages as they come in. Then, eventually, they seem to also intend to take it one step farther and allow for arbitrary sync locations for that "primary replica" outside of their own cloud storage, which is even better and goes even further than Apple's implementation does.

If done well, I actually quite like the vision they're going for here. I'm still frustrated that they wouldn't just port the simple file backup feature from Android to the other platforms, even as just a stopgap until this is finished, but I think that the eventual completion of this feature as described will solve all of my major concerns with Signal's current storage implementation.

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#155
post #123
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

got it. doesn't Signal already have on-device keys with a session ratchet? why not back those keys up so one can decrypt the entire history on any device?

afaik the key material is regenerated for every message. new keys can be derived for every subsequent message you send, but only until you get a reply, then a new key exchange takes place. And the key material for message m1 cannot derive keys for the messages that came before m1. If the old key material gets properly deleted then there is only a very small window of compromise. backing up those keys would defeat the…

yes, agreed, and isn't this feature re-encrypting all of the material without a ratchet or asymmetrical boxing?

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#156
post #52
post #32

This is so incredibly important! I am very happy to see this, the fact that you could not do a backup on iOS and you would lose everything in case your device dies is the biggest drawback of Signal. I still do not quite understand why I can't have the option to just back things up to iCloud (I do understand the security implications and I'm fine with it), but ANY backup solution is better than "your data is gone, tou…

> This is so incredibly important! I am very happy to see this, the fact that you could not do a backup on iOS and you would lose everything in case your device dies is the biggest drawback of iOS. FTFY. It's originally Apple preventing its users from easily controlling their own data.

Apple 100% supports this, and has since day one, backing up securely to your local computer with no cloud in sight--and, in fact, has always been an industry leader on this, as they understand backups directly help their hardware sales--but Signal goes out of their way to block it.

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#157
Are backups really necessary? I have always regarded texts (over Signal or SMS) as ephemeral. No one is or should be sending valuable information over Signal, and if you happen to receive something you want to keep, you can always do so manually.

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#158

I can't believe Signal is doing this. Signal is known for its cutting-edge cryptographic protocol, but this feature has the effect of throwing that out the window and replacing it with a single static key. If a device with this enabled goes through the whole advanced protocol to receive a message (double ratcheting etc), then turns around and uploads it back to Signal’s servers with a static key, isn't that a roundab…

>Signal is known for its cutting-edge cryptographic protocol, but this feature has the effect of throwing that out the window and replacing it with a single static key

The exfiltration of which is as easy as exfiltration of database on device. You're not running an IDS scanning 100% of your device LTE traffic in case that happens.

>isn't that a roundabout way of replacing all of signal's protocol and its forward secrecy with a static key that has no forward secrecy?

It's opt in. And again exfiltrating the backup key is as easy as exfiltrating your messages from your device.

>You can’t know whether someone you’re talking to -- who may not understand the implications -- has enabled it

You can't know if you're talking to an informant or if your contact is running Android that's receiving security updates or if it's a zero-day on wheels, either. Tech doesn't solve human problems.

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#159
post #48

Backing up Signal on Android for free and offline was ~always possible. The app creates a multi GB backup file on the phone memory under the Signal folder that you can just copy out and back on a new phone. The file is encrypted with the passcode and the database can be extracted. https://github.com/bepaald/signalbackup-tools

There are a couple of problems with the existing backup: 1. It is non-incremental. This means you'll need about as much free space on your phone as your Signal database takes, and it may take many hours to make if your database is large (mine is 18GB). I used to wake up to find my phone had not even fully charged because it had been so busy writing Signal backups. 2. Once you have it on disk, how do you get it away f…

  > Once you have it on disk, how do you get it away from your phone?
Since we're talking about Android, a great method is to just use Termux and rsync. You can write a pretty quick and dirty shell script to accomplish this. Here, I'll drop mine[0]. It's no the cleanest but it'll get the job done and has some documentation to it. It will check if you're on WiFi and connected to a specific SSID. You can change this around pretty easily to do different things like point at 2 servers, use Tailscale, give a white list of allowed SSIDs, change the rsync to have it delete from the local storage, or whatever. If you don't know how you can reply to this comment or open an issue and I'll respond[1].

Unfortunately this doesn't work on iPhone. I have a shortcut that will do something similar that I can share but that is a lot hackier...

[0] https://github.com/stevenwalton/.dotfiles/blob/master/script...

[1] Probably better. I'm normally logged into my alt account

Re: Signal Secure Backups

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference to me between storing it on device and someone else's servers.

Why does it matter if everything is encrypted?

Why am I downvoted? It seems actually encrypted, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171740
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