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Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

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Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#151

Post by samdoesnothing »

lovich wrote: post #150
samdoesnothing wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments once banned interracial relationships and marriage, homosexuality, women working outside the home, divorce, birth control, dancing, drinking etc, on account of contributing to anti-social behaviour. It's true that they haven't collapsed, but I don't think that's because those things were once banned.

If your point is that what was acceptable in the past is now distasteful, then respectfully I do not care. The fact that the government cannot create a regulation that works for everyone, everywhere, all at once across time and space is not a winning argument for me since that limitation applies to all actors. We go through cycles where we either change what society generally considers "ok" or we discover that someth…

I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today.

I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour, no matter how distasteful we find it, is not a great idea for various reasons - 1. it's subjective, 2. people get tired of prudish cultures and act out in various ways, 3. you end up on the wrong side of history. As a society we're becoming a lot more liberal about letting people do their own thing, as long as they aren't actually hurting others. Playing music out loud is not hurting others, neither is wearing a bikini at the beach, etc.

Of course there are always the hall monitors that want to control other peoples behaviour and they often use the excuse that they're regulating bad behaviour for the sake of society. Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#152

Post by immibis »

JSR_FDED wrote: post #21
lubsch wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you see a contradiction. Could you explain it to me? As I see it, the author claims that those who appear shameless are increasingly successful in today's day and age. The second statement is a prediction that basically follows from that and I feel like the prediction is holding up.

What I meant was that on the one hand the article says that we shouldn’t underestimate the shameless. On the other hand it says that the person who employed shamelessness in the first election likely won’t win again (thereby underestimating the shameless).

What? He did win again.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#153

Post by marcus_holmes »

potato3732842 wrote: post #118
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

>Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. >In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. Your equivalent ilk of decades past complained about "kids these days" and their boomboxes in public in basically the same way you're doing now.

It's not kids - if it was then sure, I could write this off as "kids these days". But it's all sorts, all ages, all cultures. Obviously some folks always wanted to do this.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#154

Post by marcus_holmes »

woooooo wrote: post #106
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

> trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. Speak for yourself, its at least satisfying. Insult their choice of music and provide suggestions for what they should play instead.

It gets tiring. I'm willing to fight a certain amount for some kind of social norms that respect other people. But honestly, if every bus trip needs to turn into a confrontation, it gets old fast.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#155

Post by marcus_holmes »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #70
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

Authenticity doesn't mean you act in a way that the majority approves of, in fact it's often the opposite case. It also doesn't make any presuppositions about the morality of specific behaviour. To be authentic is to be your true self, despite what others think which requires bravery and that is something people admire. If something is considered shameful is a subjective judgement about behaviours that may or may not…

My point is that your definition of "authenticity" seems to include behaviour that is plain inconsiderate of other people.

I think there's a line there. You can wear what you like, think what you like, speak how you like, but only behave how you like up to the point where your behaviour negatively affects other people. If you want to listen to shit music in your own home, you do you, that's fine. But inflicting it on everyone else in a train carriage is not "being authentic" it's "being an asshole". You're not expressing your true self in a brave way that should be admired. You're annoying everyone around you by being selfish. It's a huge difference.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#156

Post by marcus_holmes »

const_cast wrote: post #127
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

The problem with shame is that the people who use shame as a tool do not understand how to use it conservatively. You see, they shame for playing music in public. Okay, great. But they also shame for your weight, your sexuality, the color of your skin. Your job, your hobbies, your family. Your clothing, your skin, your hair. And now, shame, as a tool, has been worn down to its bones. Of course then society at large b…

Yeah, agree. It has been overused, and it's good that that doesn't work any more. I'd like the line to be drawn just a little further back, though, please ;)

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#157

Post by lovich »

samdoesnothing wrote: post #151
lovich wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your point is that what was acceptable in the past is now distasteful, then respectfully I do not care. The fact that the government cannot create a regulation that works for everyone, everywhere, all at once across time and space is not a winning argument for me since that limitation applies to all actors. We go through cycles where we either change what society generally considers "ok" or we discover that someth…

I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour, no matter how distasteful we find it, is not a great idea for various reasons - 1. it's subjective, 2. people get tired of prudish cultures and act out in various ways, 3. you end up on the wrong side of history. As a society we're becoming a lot more li…

> I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today.

It could be either

> I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour…

I did not mention anything close to regulating “most” behavior, and I want to call out to you, since you are respectfully laying out your point, that this seems to be a common knee jerk reaction to a large number of people bemoaning any particular issue if I bring up government regulation. That knee jerk reaction specifically being the assumption that being for any government regulations means you are for regulating most or all things.

> Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power.

It’s only thankful if you prefer the situation. If you are someone who does not want to experience pot smoke and loud music blaring in your ear when someone chooses to do so because they have the freedom to, then maybe you prefer the hall monitor.

I’m not even advocating for one option or the other. This thread started with me pointing out to someone who was upset at people engaging in anti social behavior en masse, that the solution was government regulation.

If you don’t like government regulations in general, or you just think that on net they are a detriment, then the solution is to make peace with the fact that other people are going to use their freedom in a way that you don’t like

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#158

Post by Spooky23 »

borroka wrote: post #35
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stuff is an art. Andrew Cuomo was this weird sex symbol for awhile. Eventually people got sick of him, and the media people just pile on.

It's all about the situation and depends a lot on personality, the real one, not the facade, on intangibles (“aura”) and on never showing any weakness or offering apologies. Trump's strategy works because it/he has all the elements to do so. Has he ever offered apologies? Never. He always moves forward: the past is the past. From an appearance standpoint, he offers an easy target for his rivals. But why hasn't anyone…

Trump is a good bully. His fakeness is real.

Remember the Star Trek with the alternate universe where bad Spock had a beard? Trump is like evil Bill Clinton. He has a charisma and he feels your pain, but instead of trying to find a solution, he tells you everyone is stupid and he will help you get retribution.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#159

Post by samdoesnothing »

lovich wrote: post #157
samdoesnothing wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour, no matter how distasteful we find it, is not a great idea for various reasons - 1. it's subjective, 2. people get tired of prudish cultures and act out in various ways, 3. you end up on the wrong side of history. As a society we're becoming a lot more li…

> I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. It could be either > I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour… I did not mention anything close to regulating “most” behavior, and I want to call out to you, since you are respectfully laying out your point, that this seems to be a common knee jerk reaction to a large number of people bemoanin…

Sorry, when I said "most" behaviour I meant it categorically, not quantifiably. As in, most behaviours should not be regulated, not that there are people who want to regulate most or all things.

I don't think the solution to the type of anti-social behaviour described in the article is regulating it. Like I'm not sure how we can make "being Paris Hilton" illegal, unless we do something akin to bringing back Puritanism or something like that. I very much appreciate both the separation of church and state, and also the freedom to live my life how I want even if there are some people who disapprove of it.

> If you don’t like government regulations in general, or you just think that on net they are a detriment, then the solution is to make peace with the fact that other people are going to use their freedom in a way that you don’t like

Yeah I think the lesson is that people need to make peace with the fact that other people have different values and should be free to live their lives the way they want.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#160

Post by jakeydus »

const_cast wrote: post #127
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

The problem with shame is that the people who use shame as a tool do not understand how to use it conservatively. You see, they shame for playing music in public. Okay, great. But they also shame for your weight, your sexuality, the color of your skin. Your job, your hobbies, your family. Your clothing, your skin, your hair. And now, shame, as a tool, has been worn down to its bones. Of course then society at large b…

I think the primary difference is shaming someone for behavior that impacts others and shaming someone for behavior that is none of my business.
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