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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#151

Post by lazide »

tuesdaynight wrote: post #144
SirFatty wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard, David Kersh. I realize there have always been people that are coocoo for cocoa puffs. But so many as there appear to be now?

Internet made possible to know global news all the time. I think that there have always been a lot of people with very crazy and extremist views, but we only knew about the ones closer to us. Now it's possible to know about crazy people from the other side of the planet, so it looks like there's a lot more of them than before.

Yup. Like previously, westerners could have gone their whole lives with no clue the Hindutva existed [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva] - Hindu Nazis, basically. Which if you know Hinduism at all, is a bit like saying Buddhist Nazis. Say what?

Which actually kinda exised/exists too? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichirenism], right down to an attempted coup and a bunch of assassinations [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Blood_Incident].

Now you know. People be whack.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#152

Post by handoflixue »

noqc wrote: post #15

Perhaps I will get downvoted to death again for saying so, but the obvious answer is because the name "rationalist" is structurally indistinguishable from the name "scientology" or "the illuminati". You attract people who are desperate for an authority to appeal to, but for whatever reason are no longer affiliated with the church of their youth. Even a rationalist movement which held nothing as dogma would attract pe…

> Obviously the article intends to make the case that this is a cult

The author is a self-identified rationalist. This is explicitly established in the second sentence of the article. Given that, why in the world would you think they're trying to claim the whole movement is a cult?

Obviously you and I have very different definitions of "obvious"

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#153

Post by vannevar »

JTbane wrote: post #20
mlinhares wrote: post #4

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

I don't know how you can call yourself a "rationalist" and base your worldview on a fantasy game.

"Rationalist" in this context does not mean "rational person," but rather "person who rationalizes."

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#154

Post by noqc »

johnisgood wrote: post #30
noqc wrote: post #15

Perhaps I will get downvoted to death again for saying so, but the obvious answer is because the name "rationalist" is structurally indistinguishable from the name "scientology" or "the illuminati". You attract people who are desperate for an authority to appeal to, but for whatever reason are no longer affiliated with the church of their youth. Even a rationalist movement which held nothing as dogma would attract pe…

I do not see any reasons for you to get down-voted. I agree that the term "rationalist" would appeal to many people, and the obvious need to belong to a group plays a huge role.

There are a lot of rationalists in this community. Pointing out that the entire thing is a cult attracts downvotes from people who wish to, for instance, avoid being identified with the offshoots.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#155

Post by handoflixue »

nyeah wrote: post #140
handoflixue wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Psychiatry? Do you think psychiatrists are particularly prone to starting cults? Do you think learning about psychiatry makes you at risk for cult-like behavior?

No. I have no beef with psychology or psychiatry. They're doing good work as far as I can tell. I am poking fun at people who take "rationality" and turn it into a brand name.

Why is "you can work to avoid cognitive biases" more ridiculous than "you can work to improve your mental health"?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#156

Post by vannevar »

TrackerFF wrote: post #33
mlinhares wrote: post #4

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

Cult leaders tend to be narcissists. Narcissists tend to believe that they are always right, no mater what the topic is, or how knowledgeable they are. This makes them speak with confidence and conviction. Some people are very drawn to confident people. If the cult leader has other mental health issues, it can/will seep into their rhetoric. Combine that with unwavering support from loyal followers that will take ever…

Yes. The cult's "beliefs" really boil down to one belief: the infallibility of the leader. Much of the attraction is in the simplicity.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#157

Post by NoGravitas »

j_m_b wrote: post #26

> One way that thinking for yourself goes wrong is that you realize your society is wrong about something, don’t realize that you can’t outperform it, and wind up even wronger. many such cases

Capital-R Rationalism also encourages you to think you can outperform it, by being smart and reasoning from first principles. That was the idea behind MetaMed, founded by LessWronger Michael Vassar - that being trained in rationalism made you better at medical research and consulting than medical school or clinical experience. Fortunately they went out of business before racking up a body count.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#158

Post by noqc »

handoflixue wrote: post #152
noqc wrote: post #15

Perhaps I will get downvoted to death again for saying so, but the obvious answer is because the name "rationalist" is structurally indistinguishable from the name "scientology" or "the illuminati". You attract people who are desperate for an authority to appeal to, but for whatever reason are no longer affiliated with the church of their youth. Even a rationalist movement which held nothing as dogma would attract pe…

> Obviously the article intends to make the case that this is a cult The author is a self-identified rationalist. This is explicitly established in the second sentence of the article. Given that, why in the world would you think they're trying to claim the whole movement is a cult? Obviously you and I have very different definitions of "obvious"

When I read the article in its entirety, I was pretty disappointed in its top-level introspection.

It seems to not be true, but I still maintain that it was obvious. Sometimes people don't pick the low-hanging fruit.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#159

Post by arwhatever »

bobson381 wrote: post #96
JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

There should be an extremist cult of people who are certain only that uncertainty is the only certain thing

“Oh, that must be exhausting.”

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#160

Post by ponector »

JTbane wrote: post #20
mlinhares wrote: post #4

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

I don't know how you can call yourself a "rationalist" and base your worldview on a fantasy game.

I my experience, religious people are perfectly fine with contradicted worldview.

Like christians are very flexible in following 10 commandments, always been.

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