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New executive order puts all grants under political control

arstechnica.com

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Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#151

Post by russellbeattie »

ethbr1 wrote: post #144
russellbeattie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly,…

> We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.

> "...would drastically shift power."

What exactly do you think will change? The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity. Unless there's a big enough swing so that impeachment and conviction is a reality, Congress will have essentially zero impact.

Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally. They are truly ecstatic with what's happened so far. The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential. If Republicans do lose the House, it'll most likely be by a small margin, and the current Congress will rush through a bunch of laws to be signed that will make the next one as useless as possible.

And even if there was in fact a huge swing allowing Congress to try and stop the White House's wrecking ball, the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#152

Post by sizzle »

Yizahi wrote: post #126
ocschwar wrote: post #31

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

This ends USA, full stop. Not this particular executive order, but his orders in general. It's been half a year and that orange turd has completely overtaken USA legislative branch with this "economic emergency", while bobbleheads in the Congress just signed it away voluntarily. And now he is taking preliminary shots at the judicial branch, trying to eradicate judges who aren't bending the knee. All the while testing…

What can we do about it?

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#153

Post by tremon »

panarchy wrote: post #8

There's a reason the Americans discovered how to make atomic weapons first and it's because their researchers were living under a less oppressive state that wasn't motivated by anti-intellectualism and dumb ideology.

Nice revisionism you got there. It wasn't Americans that discovered it. It was mostly German scientists working in the US after they fled their own more oppressive state.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#154

Post by 827a »

mnky9800n wrote: post #66
827a wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest reason is because we have a strategic multinational interest in remaining a leader in science. China (and other countries) will fund science. We have to as well, or we fall behind. Its national security. We also have a strategic interest in draining intelligent individuals from other countries and nationalizing them in ours, which science funding plays a major part in doing. One of the reasons why its com…

It’s also that most r1 university budgets single largest contributor is grant overhead which is the approximate 50% of the grant you win is given to the university. But the people who write and win these grants have little say over how this money is spent. Also because universities are impervious to reorganising there is a lot of extra weight within departments as well.

The Trump administration has actually passed an order to limit this to 15% of the grant value. But, the point stands.

[1] https://www.nsf.gov/policies/document/indirect-cost-rate

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#155

Post by remify »

CalRobert wrote: post #62

If European leadership has even half a brain cell this could be the catalyst for enormous growth in European science. But they’d need to act fast.

The EU don't act fast. It act slow and steady, it's not perfect but it sure is better then whatever is happnening the other side of the Atlantic.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#156

Post by seanmcdirmid »

v5v3 wrote: post #99
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a pretty good place to be a scientists in certain fields. The pay is very competitive.

Then why are all the Chinese origin AI Devs working in USA?

You only see the ones working in the USA and not the ones working in China. The USA still pays better than China, and has more stomach for immigration (for now…Trump is working on making that worse), but when I was working in Beijing a lot of engineers from Japan, Korea, Taiwan, were there specifically for the higher pay.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#158

Post by ethbr1 »

russellbeattie wrote: post #151
ethbr1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.

> "...would drastically shift power." What exactly do you think will change? The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity. Unless there's a big enough swing so that impeachment and conviction is a reality, Congress will have essentially zero impact. Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally . They are truly ecstatic with what's happened so far. The other 60% are being gerr…

I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality.

> The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity

Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling?

And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison#Backgroun...

Joisting for power between federal branches (and with states, historically) has been a constant in American democracy more often (most of its history) than not (1970s+).

> Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally

Yes, such is the danger of personality cults in democracies.

> The other 60% are being gerrymandered so their majority status is inconsequential.

Gerrymandering has always been a finger on the scales of elections, and will continue to be, until such time as Congress puts a stop to it (though debatable they have the power). https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/

> the amount of damage between now and January 2027 will be monumental and irreversible.

I imagine FDR's ghost is spinning in his grave, with things to say about Hoover.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#159

Post by epistasis »

defrost wrote: post #64
epistasis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not because they trusted their scientists to be able to do it though. They used the plans stolen form the US instead.

It's somewhat more complicated given that much of the significant work passed on by Klaus Fuchs to the Soviets that they acknowledge was responsible for the first Soviet fission bomb was Fuchs own work .. he shared with the British, the Americans, the Canadians, and the Soviets .. who were all ostensibly allies at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs Adding to @eastbound's comment the Soviets were also…

What is the complication to my story here... Allies do not share all secrets.

Not sure what relevance the space race has to this topic either!

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#160

Post by nikanj »

random3 wrote: post #142
nikanj wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU will not act on this unless the bill also includes provisions to support hobby horse manufacturing in eastern romania

You seem to be frustrated about Romania (which has an east but not a formal eastern region designation as in Eastern Europe - are you conflating the two?) - but can you elaborate on your frustration?

EU never manages to act under reasonable timelines, because every bill is an opportunity for some pork on the side.
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