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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#151

Post by 303uru »

GiorgioG wrote: post #106
zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #97

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge…

Odds are, you'll never experience the self-discharging issue. Having said that, I don't find a mostly-reliable firearm acceptable from a safety perspective. If I don't pull the trigger, it cannot go bang, ever, for any reason.

I’m not taking odds on an edc item which takes a lot of banging around. Glock 18 is a simple choice.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#152

Post by 303uru »

lenerdenator wrote: post #138

Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320). If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigi…

P365 is great if it fits in your hand. But agree, denial has me pretty put off.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#153

Post by sklargh »

dmurray wrote: post #99
sklargh wrote: post #55

Beyond the tragedy here - the implication of this is that USAF security forces were carrying a widely understood to be mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of nuclear weapons. I am not saying a stray round can cause a criticality but shooting a nuclear weapon or its associated delivery and logistics systems is suboptimal.

It's just as bad to be carrying mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of people . Not only that it looks callous if you say otherwise, but also the dollar cost the military put on a human life probably is higher than the typical cost of fixing a bullet hole in a nuclear weapon.

Yeah I agree, school resource officers carry P320s. Unacceptable. Analyzing from a mission assurance vs. emotive standpoint.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#154

Post by Merad »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

First, in most states it is not legal to point a weapon at someone unless you are in a situation where you're legally allowed to pull the trigger. That is, you are legitimately in fear for your life. In that situation you will likely have very little time to act in self defense.

Second, racking a slide is an action that requires fine motor control. Under the pressure and adrenaline dump that accompanies a life-or-death situation, fine motor control goes to crap. If you are fumbling with your pistol, it's useless.

Third, if you don't feel comfortable with your ability to safely handle a loaded gun, you probably shouldn't be carrying at all.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#155

Post by d0gsg0w00f »

rconti wrote: post #146
kstrauser wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I know about this situation is what I've read in these comments just now. I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I think the surprise is that a company who makes something considered highly reliable would make a similar item that the Air Force claims is killing their airmen. It'd be like Toyota making another pickup, the Bellevue, that likes to randomly explode. Sure, things happen, but Toyota ? Huh, that would be…

I mean, the new Toyota Tundra seems to have lots of problems with its V8, and I'm not sure people call that _crazy_.

You must mean 2021 Tundras. 2022 and up are twin turbo V6 only.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#156

Post by twalla »

djoldman wrote: post #143
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #17

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

Like anything you want to become proficient at, you need consistent practice. How many free throws do you think LeBron has practiced? Now imagine you die if you miss. Also it’s fun to blast stuff.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#157

Post by TheFreim »

darkteflon wrote: post #53

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose…

> I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case?

Some handguns have manual safety switches, others don't. For example, the Sig P365 (an excellent, highly regarded sub-compact pistol often used for concealed carry), has models with or without a manual safety (you can also install a safety yourself if yours doesn't have one). Some handguns also have a "grip safety" which requires you to firmly hold the grip to disable the safety.

> If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the safety?

Because modern firearms have a variety of built-in safety mechanisms, separate from manual safety switches, which prevent unwanted discharges, the only thing that will cause a good firearm to go off will be the trigger being pulled. Combining this fact with modern form-fitting holsters which fully cover the trigger guard, it becomes impossible to fire the gun while it remains in the holster. This means that even without a manual safety switch you can carry safely without worrying about the gun going off until you draw and pull the trigger.

Echoing another reply to your comment, if you do have a safety on your gun you would typically toggle the safety while training to build muscle memory. This means you would practice enabling the safety, holstering the firearm, drawing the firearm, disabling the safety, and firing in a swift motion so that you always disable the safety when drawing.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#158

Post by wslh »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103
bl4ckneon wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know some people who went into the air force out of high school. They are idiots. Given a large enough group of people you will have examples of just about anything (including idiots) Another example, it's estimated that 1-2% of all military members are part of or connected to an illegal gang organization.

> I know some people who went into the air force out of high school. They are idiots Every population has some idiots in it. My point is the Air Force is difficult to get into, has a high fraction of educated servicemembers [1], has lower turnover and higher pay than the other branches. (Back when we measured IQ, the Air Force had a higher average IQ than the other branches and population.) I know idiots who work at…

I'm not sure if this is the message you intended, but it's worth noting that having a high IQ doesn't necessarily prevent someone from being an idiot.

Historically the word "idiot" was used particularly with those with very low IQ scores but now is a pejorative term.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#159

Post by nickpinkston »

Khaine wrote: post #129

Ian from Forgotten Weapons posted an interesting video on this a while back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE And then a more recent follow up https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY

+1 Forgotten Weapons

Ian ("Gun Jesus") is amazing, even just from a history / engineering perspective.

I like it far better than more Michael Bay leaning content in that space, though there's good fun in a "Can this 50 cal go thru X ?" videos haha.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#160

Post by 9x39 »

djoldman wrote: post #143
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #17

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

Practicing until it’s muscle memory. Progressing through increased distances, smaller targets, more challenging conditions. Particularly in long-range shooting, dialing in hand loaded round configurations for accuracy and consistency.

I think it’s possible for many shooters to achieve parts of a flow state when doing this. Imagine the satisfaction of throwing, catching, or hitting balls over and over in muscle memory, letting your mind and body work together to let your coordination and accuracy improve to solve the puzzle.

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