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The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

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Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#151
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite sure about the affordability part. Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive. Housing is becoming a luxury. Even consumer products are becoming increasingly expensive. Safety largely improved but not craftsmanship.

> Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive. Adjusted for inflation, car prices are actually lower now than decades ago, especially factoring in huge safety and tech improvements. Entry-level models remain affordable, while buyers voluntarily pay more for SUVs and tech-heavy EVs. > Housing is becoming a luxury. Rising housing prices are mostly driven by land scarcity and zoning. The actual cost per square meter of co…

Generally agree.

In snowbelt (and even somewhat sub-snowbelt) regions, cars would pretty much rust out at 50K miles and starting when conditions were wet or cold could be an adventure.

And, while I have the option of buying an expensive "handmade" (with the aid of expensive CNC equipment) dining room table--which I have done--I also have the option of buying a sturdy and nice-looking mail-order bed for $300 that I assemble.

Housing is the main thing but, as you say, that's mostly a matter of location. There are a ton of cheaper locations but many don't want to live there--even if they're fairly accessible to a major city.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#152
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite sure about the affordability part. Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive. Housing is becoming a luxury. Even consumer products are becoming increasingly expensive. Safety largely improved but not craftsmanship.

> Cars are becoming prohibitively expensive. Adjusted for inflation, car prices are actually lower now than decades ago, especially factoring in huge safety and tech improvements. Entry-level models remain affordable, while buyers voluntarily pay more for SUVs and tech-heavy EVs. > Housing is becoming a luxury. Rising housing prices are mostly driven by land scarcity and zoning. The actual cost per square meter of co…

> Adjusted for inflation, car prices are actually lower now than decades ago

And so are salaries. Just compare what kind of job you needed to be able to afford a car 40 years ago to today.

Reality is still reality, people live in it and face it everyday.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#153
post #97

"Following his reasoning, it cannot be stated in absolute terms that an iPhone 15 is of “better quality” than a 2003 Nokia." This statement suffers from either viewing the past through rose-tinted glasses or from total cultural relativism in the most pejorative sense. I'm not sure about 2003, but around 2009, I owned a Nokia N900, which was arguably the flagship Nokia phone at the time. I can confidently state that c…

2003 was Symbian time. The OS was built around cell network reliability and low power. The N900 was the promising side-show getting few resources and attention. Compared to the iPhone or any modern phone, it did a lot more with a lot less battery. The networking on my iPhones is not great, but it’s hard to compare. In the end modern smartphones couldn’t win at that game, but the game has changed. Lately, through addi…

people are addicted to features though

that's why these pure/fair/libre phones were failing to reach any market share and even sustainability.

but things are slowly getting better, projects underway to get smoother better performance on every platform, taking better care of the battery (limit charge to some percentage), use more efficient stack - from network to graphics, Bluetooth and WiFi and of course all the other radios.

...

sure, most of this is unfortunately unnoticeable compared to the billions of people glued to the absolutely TikTokified Internet :/

(well, hopefully we'll get through this phase of developing social immune system for a new medium faster than we did after the printing press, after the radio, and after TV)

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#154

Airplane tickets used to cost a lot more for economy class, even adjusted for inflation and fees. To get the equivalent service and quality today you simply have to pay more, you just have the choice of paying very little for very low quality because there’s more flights and more planes. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/even-with-fees-the-miracle-of... Same can be said for most electronics and even clothes. I’m not say…

> Same can be said for most electronics and even clothes.

I wish that were my experience as well. However, I've found that most brands simply add a huge markup for their name while investing very little into quality. As a result, you end up paying three times the price for just 20% better quality.

When it comes to electronics, I feel like I can judge that for myself, and my gut feeling about clothing was confirmed after falling down a YouTube rabbit hole of "clothing teardowns."

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#155
post #70

> Many products are hard to compare due to the enormous price difference Well that explains a lot, doesn't it? The article is right overall but occasionally glances over the importance of the "quality/price" ratio. As the price went down, buying habits changed, and by extension the manufacturing habits. When things are cheap nobody wants to keep them forever, they get exchanged sooner to "keep up with the times". My…

Not that sure. I know Bosch, Liebherr and Samsung fridges bought in the 2000’s that lasted 10+ years, some of them that keeps running even after being used heavily (being moved, used by families of 5…etc). They are repairable and some got repaired. They are 2-3000€+. Which is 2-3x the average monthly salary.

An other thing to account for is the price of repairs. If your appliances costs less than one hour of a mid-skill technician, it’s hard to justify the spending. Same for doing it yourself if you’re time is worth a lot. The only solution is to by high end, which is always risky and more cash intensive. Most people will prefer buying cheap and change to new if required

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#156
post #132
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought my dad a Nokia phone in 2008. A dumb phone, with just texting and calling features. It continues to work to this day, so, 17 years (the markings on the buttons are fully erased now, other than that it works). It outlived him. I don't know how they managed to build stuff like that. I would expect some electronic part to fail sometime along the way.

Well, I can tell you how: rigorous testing. I worked for Nokia (briefly, just before Eloppification) and I remember being told that when the iPhone launched everyone laughed because there was no way that the battery could last more than a day, there was no app store back then, no flash, no high-speed data (2G) and it failed every single one of the internal tests that Nokia had. Yet, people didn’t care, obviously - an…

I was there, too. Not at Nokia, but in the ecosystem of these companies.

People wanted iPhone over Nokia, not due to its specs but due to its usability and presentation.

Let's be honest, both Symbian and Maemo/Meego were abject messes in both of these categories.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#157
post #70

> Many products are hard to compare due to the enormous price difference Well that explains a lot, doesn't it? The article is right overall but occasionally glances over the importance of the "quality/price" ratio. As the price went down, buying habits changed, and by extension the manufacturing habits. When things are cheap nobody wants to keep them forever, they get exchanged sooner to "keep up with the times". My…

I use a 35 year old German-brand fridge that still works perfectly. I wouldn’t necessarily expect a modern fridge to last that long.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#158
post #98

Most of the people on this board are upper middle to lower upper class (thinking American, apologies to my non US friends). Such people can afford products outside the grasp of most Americans. What naturally happens to such products is that the manufacturers find a way to broaden their customer base. They find ways to bring the price point down so they can sell more. For most people this is a boon. They can afford a…

The parable of boots seems apt here. In the extreme, expensive pair can last for a decade while people who can only afford the cheap pair will have to keep buying a new one every year. Yes, the fact that any family can afford a new shelving unit is great! But the fact that it’ll last them just a few years is not good; they’ll spend more in the long run

Only the parable does not work. Objectively. The fact that the poor are forced to spend more because they cannot afford something is complete bs. I can't imagine any area (maybe except perhaps interaction with government bureaucracy) where the parable would be relevant.

Shoes that last a decade are cost a lot more than five pairs of cheap shoes that last two years. And the same with furniture and everything else.

"Pay less in the long run" is a pure marketing ploy for dumb pompous people with money to make them pay more.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#159
post #90

Anyone else starting to see this as an unconscious but inevitable outcome of the world’s tail-end stage of becoming developed? Moore’s law has ended. The LHC found nothing of note. Childhood mortality and Polio have been defeated. The periodic table is effectively complete. R&D is having limited returns. This AI capex spend is just hardware and data catching up to R&D from the 1980s. We were born thinking the curve f…

Moore's law might have ended but Wright's law didn't, and even if it did, it would still be progress, we don't have exponential development in everything. Continues improvement is still continuous.

> The LHC found nothing of note.

That's just wrong.

> Childhood mortality and Polio have been defeated.

Childhood mortality has not been defeated. And while Polio has been, many other things haven't.

> The periodic table is effectively complete.

People in the next 100 years will add more. And even so, there is so much about materials we don't understand its actually insane. There are many things we learn about materials that is just as or more relevant then discovering a new element.

> R&D is having limited returns.

It has always had limited returns. And in some ways it has huge returns. Making an airlplane 1% more efficient today has a much larger overall impact then making a plane 10% more efficient 50 years ago.

> This AI capex spend is just hardware and data catching up to R&D from the 1980s.

That's just dismissive of 30+ years of research and work. You might as well argue that its just 200 years of catching up to the vision of Ada.

> But since about the early 2000s we’ve quietly known the curve was logistic, and not god-given.

From a global perspective there is no slowdown, its only relative to US experience.

> Businesses are still in high gear expecting growth eternal. This puts a chain of pressure down from CEO through every decision maker in the organisation: “at the end of the day, this number has to go up and this number go down”.

This has literally been every business for 5000 years.

> Businesses used to make the lives of their customers a little better through their products or services.

And they still do.

> The only model left, now that all the large pile of low-hanging fruit of innovation are gone, is to aggressively extract money from customers.

That's just not accurate. Go look up how much investment in next generation notes cost TSMC and then tell me all they do is extract money from consumers. Tell me that the restaurant down the street who works hard creating incredibly food is just extracting money from consumers in some kind of aggressive way.

When SpaceX deployed a whole new infrastructure around the globe, was that just extracting money because innovation is impossible, or was it massive innovation and massive infrastructure spending?

This is just a cynical world-view glorifying the past. When in effect, innovation wasn't easy. Go look up how many people died in air accidents, or car accidents. Go look up how many mainframe and minicomputer companies came and went, trying to invent the future. If anything the length companies now-days go to, to prevent a single death is actually kind of crazy.

> Perhaps this is all just stemming from business assumptions of exponential growth being flawed.

There are tons of business that don't expect exponential growth. There are even many that expect to shrink. And tons of business who do expect it don't get it. And yet the world keeps turning for those business too.

Capitalism can work perfectly fine in situation of now growth, plenty of countries have seen little growth for decades. And yet food still gets delivered to stores. Trains and cars keep going around. And so on and so on. But even in those places, companies don't stop trying to grow.

Maybe we will live in a world where no company will ever grow and wont for decades, even in that world, MBA and everybody else will still try to grow companies. Even if the world experienced a 50 year decline, that wouldn't change anything. Teach them about logistic curves all you like.

> But not optimised for me.

The world doesn't evolve around you. Shocking that you had to realize that like this.

Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality

#160
People fall largely in two categories: Those who condemn the past and those who glorify it.

Of course the reality is between. Whenever something experiences mass adoption, of course quality will decline, e. g. airplane seats with mass adoption of flying.

But so, so many things improved dramatically in quality. I could give you endless examples but just think about cars.

Despite anecdata to the contrary the reliability of cars increased over the decades.

Most 60s cars had rust problems after a couple of years. By the 80s this was largely solved.

Most 70s cars had all kinds of mechanical problems but by the 90s this was largely solved.

Most 80s cars had lots of electronics problems but by the 2000s this was largely solved.

Sure we still have software issues and the whole transition to EV's makes has us deal with new problems, but do I want any of my old cars back? Hell no!

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