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The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

bbc.com

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Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#151

Post by kragen »

martey wrote: post #136
gerdesj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sorry but I can't help myself: 01975 is the dialling code for somewhere in Aberdeenshire! WP: "(However, no edible honey has been found in Egyptian tombs; all such cases have been proven to be other substances or only chemical traces.[29])" [29] is https://gwern.net/doc/history/1975-leek.pdf - this does not look like a peer reviewed paper. They do look to be reputable and they refute some rubbish documented ca…

> [29] is https://gwern.net/doc/history/1975-leek.pdf - this does not look like a peer reviewed paper. They do look to be reputable and they refute some rubbish documented cases of ancient honey but not all of them. The Gwern link is just a PDF copy of an article from a 1975 issue of "Bee World": https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0005772X.1975.11... I can't speak to the journal's rigor in the 1970s, but the…

Also, peer review is almost unrelated to rigor. Plenty of sloppy crap gets peer reviewed, and, for example, none of Einstein's annus mirabilis papers did.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#152

Post by vlovich123 »

positr0n wrote: post #43
vlovich123 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure this isn’t just the Gell-Mann effect? It sounds like you’re probably better informed about this than the typical person and might be expecting a lot more detail than a newspaper would be endeavoring to try to convey. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

Isn’t the entire point of the Gell Man amnesia effect that all news is low quality, you just only realize it for topics you know a lot about? And OP evidently knows a lot about honey :)

Sure although I interpret it a little bit differently. All news is low quality but raises the overall bar of ignorance for people not familiar with the topic. So experts get no value from them on topics they are familiar while improving their level of baseline ignorance on topics they aren't.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#153

Post by panabee »

kragen wrote: post #41
owenversteeg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After doing some more reading, I think you might be right. I've been looking at various sugary solutions such as molasses and it seems that it's not uncommon for them to be sold with mold inhibitors such as propanoic acid. I suspect the hydrogen peroxide might play a role, but it's not very stable, I wonder how long it lasts in the honey. I'm still putting my money on the wine as far as long term storage goes, but I…

I didn't know that about molasses! It wouldn't be surprising actually if bees were synthesizing specifically propanoate to add to the honey and that nobody had noticed yet. But there are probably other molecules that would work at lower doses that they might use instead.

Thank you both for an illuminating thread. Comments were concise, curious, and dense with information. Most notably, there was respectful disagreement and a levelheaded exchange of perspective.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#154

Post by borski »

loeg wrote: post #148
borski wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I literally collect different honey (including from my own hives) and my love of it is very strong. And no, I don’t have diabetes yet. I’m not insane about it, but I do have it frequently.

(Diabetes isn't caused by sugar intake.)

Not directly, no. But indirectly, by increasing weight gain and eventual metabolic syndrome, if eaten in excess… which was my point :)

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#155

Post by kragen »

panabee wrote: post #153
kragen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know that about molasses! It wouldn't be surprising actually if bees were synthesizing specifically propanoate to add to the honey and that nobody had noticed yet. But there are probably other molecules that would work at lower doses that they might use instead.

Thank you both for an illuminating thread. Comments were concise, curious, and dense with information. Most notably, there was respectful disagreement and a levelheaded exchange of perspective.

Thank you! I try, but often I fail.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#156

Post by kragen »

vlovich123 wrote: post #152
positr0n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the entire point of the Gell Man amnesia effect that all news is low quality, you just only realize it for topics you know a lot about? And OP evidently knows a lot about honey :)

Sure although I interpret it a little bit differently. All news is low quality but raises the overall bar of ignorance for people not familiar with the topic. So experts get no value from them on topics they are familiar while improving their level of baseline ignorance on topics they aren't.

I think reading this article could result in acquiring the misconception that honey stays fresh for centuries only because it has low water activity and low pH, worsening your level of baseline ignorance and leading you to potentially significant false conclusions; for example, the conclusion that honey bandages are useless or harmful. I think that's the usual problem that Gell–Mann amnesia conceals: news that is so low quality that it actively makes you stupider when you read it.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#158

Post by kragen »

owenversteeg wrote: post #38
kragen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you make molasses bandages to speed wound healing, though? Honey really seems to have antimicrobial properties that go way beyond just low water activity and low pH, and in particular the peroxide production seems to be important. It does seem plausible that some wines might last longer than honey.

After doing some more reading, I think you might be right. I've been looking at various sugary solutions such as molasses and it seems that it's not uncommon for them to be sold with mold inhibitors such as propanoic acid. I suspect the hydrogen peroxide might play a role, but it's not very stable, I wonder how long it lasts in the honey. I'm still putting my money on the wine as far as long term storage goes, but I…

Oh, I should have mentioned that (according to, IIRC, the children's book cited in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44495658) some glucose oxidase remains in the honey, and when enough water gets into the honey for it to become active, it produces more hydrogen peroxide at that point. So the peroxide itself doesn't have to remain stable for centuries.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#159

Post by mhb »

LandR wrote: post #65
tekla wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloom isn't spoilage.

Is it eatable though ? ANytime I've had chocolate that has the white stuff I've binned it. Even if it isn't spoiled, doesn't it taste bad ?

Also, you can melt it and use it to make frosting, ganache or hot fudge sauce.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#160

Post by dylan604 »

xandrius wrote: post #105
dylan604 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take honey that has crystalized and set it in sunlight to "melt" back into the gooey goodness, but you can't do that to chocolate that has that white powdery stuff on it.

The white stuff is just fat or sugar blooming, so you can totally melt down chocolate and be good to go.

Let's see, set a jar of honey in sunlight, or get out your double boiler to melt down chocolate and be sure to get out the molds that I'm sure everyone has.

yeah, that's the same thing. roughly. but you'd be good to go to be sure

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