Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore • Hacker News Board

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#151

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:16 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #65

bjackman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket. I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

You can also use a plastic bottle or even a paper drinking cup.

You have to invent a whole lot more to have a plastic bottle or even a paper drinking cup, at that point, it'd be simpler to just invent pottery, instead.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#152

Post by nyeah » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:34 PM UTC

t-3 wrote: post #145

nyeah wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says they didn't know?

The paper linked by the grandparent claims that archaeologists and paleo-anthropologists believed that it was impossible for humans to boil until the invention of stone-carving and pottery because they thought the containers would burn.

Thanks, but I don't think that's exactly what it says. It says "Most archaeologists assume that boiling in perishable containers cannot pre-date the appearance of fire-cracked rock (FCR)"

"This paper has two principal goals. The first is to alert archaeologists and others to the fact that one can easily and effectively boil in perishable containers made of bark, hide, leaves, even paper and plastic, placed directly on the fire and without using heated stones."

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#153

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:35 PM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

[deleted]

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#154

Post by testing22321 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:41 PM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

I boiled water over a fire in a plastic jug once. I was skeptical, but it Worked great.

It was a remote hunting trip in the Yukon and my buddy forgot the camp stove & pots.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#155

Post by neanderthaul » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:50 PM UTC

slow_typist wrote: post #46

jl6 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems weird to think there needs to be a major biological distinction to explain the idea of being outcompeted. Modern humans outcompete each other at various things all the time, right now (peacefully and non-peacefully) and it’s not because of any differences as drastic as having language vs not having language.

And neanderthalensis was not outcompeted, their genes survived in Homo sapiens until today.

What if we are actually neanderthals with some homo sapien genes

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#156

Post by pinkmuffinere » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:51 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #148

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

> the whole of paleo-anthropology "knew" that humans couldn't boil things until the invention of pottery Is that really true? That sounds unlikely when there are so many contemporary counterexamples. If you have an interest in cooking, there are several traditional meals where cooking is done in other ways. Especially so for indigenous people who have little access to metals or clay. For example on Borneo the traditi…

Ya, I don't believe ```paleo-anthropology "knew" that humans couldn't boil things until the invention of pottery```, it doesn't pass 'the laugh test'. There are many survivalist youtube channels that demo multiple methods to boil water without pottery [1][2]. If I were an anthropologist, I would be looking at modern survivalist methods to get inspiration for 'ancient' habits. Surely the folks that have studied their whole lives have even better sources of inspiration to investigate. Unless we have some source to back it up, I can't see how this remarkable claim should be trusted.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0zun_UxO2vU

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_kUTBM6Qo

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#157

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 7:58 PM UTC

RugnirViking wrote: post #91

agumonkey wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the heat transfer through the material to the water "fast" enough so that it doesn't char at all ? Makes sense but still surprising.

I wonder if attempts to prevent charring of such a design could be what led to pottery. One can imagine smearing mud or clay on the underside of bark or animal hide pots to increase their longevity. Long enough exposure to high heat and ?

yeah probably

I also wonder if people tried to layer various material to cook them at different speed, a form of ad-hoc thermal control

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#158

Post by JackFr » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 8:04 PM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

> It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things

My middle school science teacher boiled water in a paper cup.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#159

Post by JackFr » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 8:05 PM UTC

Youden wrote: post #22

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

My middle school science teacher did it, and the big caveat he gave us was not to use wax or plastic-coated cups if we wanted to try at home.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#160

Post by sfn42 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 8:23 PM UTC

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #149

sfn42 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common mistake. Just this weekend I followed a recipe from a well known cooking website for beef stroganoff that said to brown the beef in batches together with batches of onion. That's not a good idea, the onion will release liquid which prevents the beef from browning and once that cooks off the heat required to brown the meat will burn the onion. So I cooked the beef and onion separately instead. The onion…

I watched a cook (America’s Test Kitchen?) where they explored different ways of thinking of heat management in pasta. The unbelievable one that worked: boil water, add pasta, turn off heat. The water retains the heat and will still penetrate the pasta. I have never actually tried it myself, but it makes sense.

It's not really that unbelievable. The pasta just has to be in hot water, whether it's 99.9C or 95C doesn't make much of a difference. I use this technique to boil eggs - boil water, turn off heat, add eggs. It seems to help avoid cracked eggs.

I also hadn't thought to boil pasta that way though.