Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#151

Post by hbn » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:16 PM UTC

McDyver wrote: post #82

_benton wrote: post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

It's not controversial, you can still have your walled garden as-is. The point of this is so that there is the possibility of escaping that walled garden, arguably welcoming more users into the ecosystem. Nothing would change for you. Just like android users can keep using all things Google, they have the possibility of installing apps from other sources.

> Nothing would change for you.

If my apps are changing, yes it is changing for me.

Right now I can manage all of my app subscriptions from the Subscriptions screen in the Settings app of my devices. If they open up to other payment methods, my subscriptions are no longer centralized, I have to give my credit card information to more parties of variable trustworthiness, I have to worry about subscription renewal policies for every individual app, I have to figure out different methods of cancelling which could be a more difficult process than hitting "cancel" and trusting Apple will stop the payments, etc.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#152

Post by whstl » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:16 PM UTC

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #130

criddell wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your employer or government requires a side-loaded app for you to do something that you need to do.

Or you end up with companies (like Wal-mart) that decide that they don’t want to accept Apple Pay and become payment processors themselves, requiring you to install their app to do phone/watch payments. Congrats, you now need a whole boquet of payment apps and we’re back to it being easier to use physical credit cards. For some of these things, the consolidation was the whole point.

Since Walmart keeps popping up in other comments, I'll do devil's advocate using the exact same argument other people used:

If you don't want to buy on Walmart and their custom payment system, then just go to a competitor.

With that said: this is an unrealistic scenario. Walmart doesn't pay the famous 30% to ApplePay, only a regular CC-like fee (probably less). Also, physically they can just accept contact payments where they don't interact with Apple but it still works with the iPhone wallet. Online, they can just use credit cards instead of ApplePay, which iPhones have autofill for, and probably not lose much.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#153

Post by _benton » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:17 PM UTC

whstl wrote: post #127

_benton wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because that requires the development and maintenance of two different operating systems, the cost of which is then passed to the consumer (me).

In this case I hope you have sympathy when I state that I dislike when Apple charges 30% on transactions (but also apps), because this cost is also passed to the consumer: me. And I 100% guarantee that the piece of this 30% pie is way bigger than the effort it would require them to divert their development like you're suggesting. EDIT: Oh, and I also bet their lawyer bill for fighting this is bigger than that too. :)

Not really, you can chose to purchase other devices with more favourable payment agreements. It's about having that choice, versus not having the ability to purchase a device with a higher level of security.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#154

Post by bgnn » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:17 PM UTC

msgodel wrote: post #74

m463 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, iMessage happily harms apple customers all the time. I know many MANY people who have lost chats with their loved ones (especially deceased ones) because there is no way to export and save their conversations. I think this should be as easy as saving photos, which apple makes (somewhat) easier to export. Back to email, it is pretty horrible to set up my local email server on an apple device. You have to go…

[flagged]

This drives me crazy on iPad! Such a missed opportunity to dominate personal laptop market is given up buy horrible UX.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#155

Post by _benton » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:19 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #133

_benton wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except implementing the functionality to optionally open up your device to the world inherently makes it less secure. I now have no ability to purchase the phone that I want. It's actually decreasing consumer choice.

Are there any versions of iOS without jailbreak exploits in them? The security was always theatre.

I think all recent iOS versions have no public jailbreak exploits.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#156

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:20 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #69

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

This is hopelessly exaggerated and bad-faith. First of all, when Apple created iMessage, there was no possible way for them to predict that friend groups would use it as a reason to treat members of their groups poorly due to using Android phones. Second of all, Apple did not deliberately make interacting with non-iMessage users in group chats "look like trash" in order to exclude them. Apple went out of its way to m…

[deleted]

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#157

Post by cosmic_cheese » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:20 PM UTC

whstl wrote: post #152

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you end up with companies (like Wal-mart) that decide that they don’t want to accept Apple Pay and become payment processors themselves, requiring you to install their app to do phone/watch payments. Congrats, you now need a whole boquet of payment apps and we’re back to it being easier to use physical credit cards. For some of these things, the consolidation was the whole point.

Since Walmart keeps popping up in other comments, I'll do devil's advocate using the exact same argument other people used: If you don't want to buy on Walmart and their custom payment system, then just go to a competitor. With that said: this is an unrealistic scenario. Walmart doesn't pay the famous 30% to ApplePay, only a regular CC-like fee (probably less). Also, physically they can just accept contact payments w…

That only works if competitors aren’t doing the same exact thing.

There’s also situations where you don’t have a choice. In many parts of the US the only reasonably accessible store (and sometimes grocery store) is a Walmart.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#158

Post by bitpush » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:22 PM UTC

hbn wrote: post #140

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

The most evil thing a tech company has done is make a proprietary messaging app? Apple didn't make SMS bad, it just was. Apple has since implemented RCS and it hasn't changed how I communicate with people from my iPhone at all. Google should probably take most of the blame for repeatedly fumbling messaging on non-Apple platforms for the past 2 decades. Every time they had something that was getting any amount of trac…

How did you manage to shift the conversation to Google in a thread about Apple?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#159

Post by _benton » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:22 PM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #121

_benton wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does hurt when I can no longer purchase a product that I want because other corporations wish to use the legal system to make more money, yes.

[flagged]

This seems like a bad faith argument. But if you're being serious, I can buy non-nike shoes in the same way you can buy non-Apple phones. If anything, the people complaining about Apple would be upset by the lawsuit because they want to buy an iPhone despite other options being available. And in that case, the alternatives are cheaper not more expensive in the case of ethically made shoes.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#160

Post by bitpush » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:24 PM UTC

DesiLurker wrote: post #106

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

google with their android anti-fragmentation-agreement is pretty predatory. basically release any/all android devices with google services and pay us cut or release none and use pure aosp. it is some next level shit.

huh. Isnt that what business deals are supposed to be? Two businesses entering into a business relationship, where both parties get something. OEMs get Google services & operating system, or OEMs are free to use open source project.

Are you saying Google should freely give away their products?