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Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

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Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#151

Post by xnickb »

balazstorok wrote: post #38

At least opening PRs is a safe option, you can just dump the whole thing if it doesn't turn out to be useful. Also, trying something new out will most likely have hiccups. Ultimately it may fail. But that doesn't mean it's not worth the effort. The thing may rapidly evolve if it's being hard-tested on actual code and actual issues. For example it will be probably changed so that it will iterate until tests are actual…

> I expect it will find its niche in development and become actually useful, taking off menial tasks from developers.

Reading AI generated code is arguably far more annoying than any menial task. Especially if the said code happens to have subtle errors.

Speaking from experience.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#152

Post by dboreham »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #50
mtmail wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on team but seems management is pushing it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44031432 "From talking to colleagues at Microsoft it's a very management-driven push, not developer-driven. Friend on an Azure team had a team member who was nearly put on a PIP because they refused to install the internal AI coding assistant. Every manager has "number of developers using AI" as an OKR, but anecdotally most d…

The question is who is setting these OKRs/Metrics for management and why? It seems to me to be coming from the CEO echo chamber (the rumored group chats we keep hearing about). The only way to keep the stock price increasing in these low growth high interest rate times is to cut costs every quarter. The single largest cost is employee salaries. So we have to shed a larger and larger percentage of the workforce and th…

> The question is who is setting these OKRs/Metrics for management and why?

Masters of the Universe, because they think they will become more rich or at least more masterful.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#154

Post by ehnto »

eterevsky wrote: post #18
margorczynski wrote: post #8

With how stochastic the process is it makes it basically unusable for any large scale task. What's the plan? To roll the dice until the answer pops up? That would be maybe viable if there was a way to automatically evaluate it 100% but with a human in the loop required it becomes untenable.

The plan is to improve AI agents from their current ~intern level to a level of a good engineer.

They are not intern level.

Even if it could perform at a similar level to an intern at a programming task, it lacks a great deal of the other attributes that a human brings to the table, including how they integrate into a team of other agents (human or otherwise). I won't bother listing them, as we are all humans.

I think the hype is missing the forest for the trees, and I think exactly this multi-agent dynamic might be where the trees start to fall down in front of us. That and the as currently insurmountable issues of context and coherence over long time horizons.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#155

Post by qoez »

nashashmi wrote: post #71
bramhaag wrote: post #58

Seeing Microsoft employees argue with an LLM for hours instead of actually just fixing the problem must be a very encouraging sight for businesses that have built their products on top of .NET.

I sometimes feel like that is the right outcome for bad management and bad instructions. Only this time they can’t blame the junior engineer and are left to only blame themselves.

They'll probably blame openai/the AI instead.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#156

Post by dboreham »

egorfine wrote: post #31
mtmail wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on team but seems management is pushing it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44031432 "From talking to colleagues at Microsoft it's a very management-driven push, not developer-driven. Friend on an Azure team had a team member who was nearly put on a PIP because they refused to install the internal AI coding assistant. Every manager has "number of developers using AI" as an OKR, but anecdotally most d…

> management is pushing it Why?

Money.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#157

Post by TimPC »

I still believe in having humans do PRs. It's far cheaper to have the judgement loop on the AI come before and during coding than after. My general process with AI is to explicitly instruct it not to write code, agree on a correct approach to a problem and if the project has any architectural components a correct architecture then once we've negotiated the correct way of doing things ask it to write code. Usually each step of this process takes multiple iterations of providing additional information or challenging incorrect assumptions of the AI. I can get it much faster than human coding with a similar quality bar assuming I iterate until a high quality solution is presented. In some cases the AI is not good enough and I fall back to human coding but for the most part I think it makes me a faster coder.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#158

Post by mrweasel »

diggan wrote: post #5

Interesting that every comment has "Help improve Copilot by leaving feedback using the or buttons" suffix, yet none of the comments received any feedback, either positive or negative. > This seems like it's fixing the symptom rather than the underlying issue? This is also my experience when you haven't setup a proper system prompt to address this for everything an LLM does. Funniest PRs are the ones that "resolves" t…

At least we can tell the junior developers to not submit a pull-request before they have the tests running locally.

At what point does the human developers just give up and close the PRs as "AI garbage". Keep the ones that works, then just junk the rest. I feel that at some point entertaining the machine becomes unbearable and people just stops doing it or rage close the PRs.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#159

Post by bluefirebrand »

yubblegum wrote: post #142
diggan wrote: post #5

Interesting that every comment has "Help improve Copilot by leaving feedback using the or buttons" suffix, yet none of the comments received any feedback, either positive or negative. > This seems like it's fixing the symptom rather than the underlying issue? This is also my experience when you haven't setup a proper system prompt to address this for everything an LLM does. Funniest PRs are the ones that "resolves" t…

This field (SE - when I started out back in late 80s) was enjoyable. Now it has become toxic, from the interview process, to imitating "big tech" songs and dances by small fry companies, and now this. Is there any joy left in being a professional software developer?

Making quite a bit of money brings me a lot of joy compared to other industries

But the actual software part? I'm not sure anymore

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#160

Post by safety1st »

surgical_fire wrote: post #109
diggan wrote: post #5

Interesting that every comment has "Help improve Copilot by leaving feedback using the or buttons" suffix, yet none of the comments received any feedback, either positive or negative. > This seems like it's fixing the symptom rather than the underlying issue? This is also my experience when you haven't setup a proper system prompt to address this for everything an LLM does. Funniest PRs are the ones that "resolves" t…

> I can't imagine how the people who have to deal with this are feeling. It's like you have a junior developer except they don't even read what you're telling them, and have 0 agency to understand what they're actually doing. That comparison is awful. I work with quite a few Junior developers and they can be competent. Certainly don't make the silly mistakes that LLMs do, don't need nearly as much handholding, and te…

These GH interactions remind me of one of those offshore software outsourcing firms on Upwork or Freelancer.com that bid $3/hr on every project that gets posted. There's a PM who takes your task and gives it to a "developer" who potentially has never actually written a line of code, but maybe they've built a WordPress site by pointing and clicking in Elementor or something. After dozens of hours billed you will, in fact, get code where the new file wasn't added to the csproj or something like that, and when you point it out, they will bill another 20 hours, and send you a new copy of the project, where the test always fails. It's exactly like this.

Nice to see that Microsoft has automated that, failure will be cheaper now.

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