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Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

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Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#151

Post by secstate »

dkarl wrote: post #121
reverendsteveii wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should do that with sports too, since it's fair and provides a reasonable basis for comparison

At every age, there's a high attrition of students participating in competitive sports, until only a tiny elite remains. Is that what we want for reading and math?

yes, because the alternative is to have kids who can't actually read being dragged along and dragging down kids who can read. What's wrong with a tiny elite remaining if it's based on actually being able to do the work?

The biggest red flag here for me is not that the tiny elite remain, it's that life circumstances will dictate that the majority of the tiny elite will continue to come from privileged families who have the time and resources to give their kids a leg up. BUT pushing kids into places where they objectively cannot compete intellectually or physically under the auspices of fairness is the devil's work. We need constant work at creating equality and to lower barriers to social services, not "fairness" and pretending everyone is already equal.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#152

Post by ch4s3 »

kogus wrote: post #132
kardianos wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They teach using proven methods, like phonics. They actually teach math. They test and use that as real information. They focus on results not on ideology. They do NOT encurage using Paulo Freire's "methods".

The article suggests that someone from Maine would be reluctant to ask Mississippi for advice, given the stereotypes and biases that all Americans have absorbed over the years. If the Maine Secretary of Education overcame his or her reluctance and did in fact ask Mississippi for advice, imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math". Do you have a source for your response? I'm genuinely cur…

You can read a bit about it here [1]. They structure reading around 5 pillars, phonemic awareness, phonics, vocabulary, fluency, and comprehension which is an evidence based approach[2]. Then if by the end of 3rd grade a student isn't reading at grade level they hold the student back to give them more time to learn to read so that they will be prepared for the more advanced material in 4th grade. I don't know as much about the math instruction.

[1] https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/mississippi-student...

[2] https://www.lexialearning.com/blog/a-full-breakdown-of-the-s...

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#153

Post by Duwensatzaj »

ajross wrote: post #22
sepositus wrote: post #11

I'm still trying to pinpoint exactly why Oregon has some of the worst scores in the country (I believe it ranked dead-last this year when adjusted for socio-economic factors). When I see what's going on around me, I can only think it's somewhat related to broken family's and undisciplined kids. The stuff that my kids come home and tell me is happening in school is pretty mind blowing. I've also noticed a complete rev…

I have kids in Oregon public schools. The schools themselves (in the sense of classroom education) are fine, for the most part. But education is very underfunded (especially relative to the tax base). So kids like mine do just fine, but anyone who needs outreach or extra support tends not to get it. That hurts badly on aggregate test scores, but not so much on college acceptance performance. So it's hard to correct,…

> education is very underfunded

Wrong.

https://www.wweek.com/news/schools/2025/02/05/dramatic-incre...

> Students in Oregon saw their reading and math scores decline over a decade when the state’s spending on schools rose by 80%, an analysis by Georgetown University shows.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#154

Post by nunez »

Interesting factoids from /r/teaching, /r/teachers and /r/mississippi:

- Mississippi's Mississippi Excellent in Teaching Program was given a ~$13M grant in 2013 so that students who attend MSU or University of Mississippi can get their entire tuition written off if they agree to teach in the MS Public School System for five years. On paper, this looks like a super sweet program. I don't recall any other state having anything similar to this outside of compensation accelerators like Teach for America (only a two year commitment) or NYC's Math for America (very selective). See MSU's METP benefits: https://www.metp.msstate.edu/about-metp/benefits. Five years is a long-enough time to convince people who would otherwise not consider a career in education to stay.

- However, MS is still a hellscape of an environment to teach in, per the comments in this (https://reddit.idevicehacked.com/r/teaching/comments/sf4rpc/...) and this (https://reddit.idevicehacked.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/...). As of 2024, MS is still dead last in teacher pay. Caps out (https://mdek12.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/36/2025/03/Salar...) at $71k for 35+ years experience and "AAAA" experience (i.e. you have a Ph.D; see here: https://www.mdek12.org/sites/default/files/Offices/MDE/OA/OT...).

- MS also instituted a policy in 2013 wherein third-graders who fail a state-level reading test are held back. This has led to an increase of teachers teaching "to the test" to decrease retention rates. The "comeback" that's documented here is for 4th grade reading performance. Unsurprisingly, the data does not show maintained levels of performance at 8th grade, as documented here (https://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2023/07/mississippis-miracl...). Some are even claiming that the MS DOE manipulates test scores to make themselves look better than they are! More here: https://reddit.idevicehacked.com/r/mississippi/comments/1idd...

My take? Improvements in student performance (at one grade level!) without corresponding improvements in teaching conditions or increased state-level committment to public education is a huge smell.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#156

Post by motorest »

pc86 wrote: post #134
motorest wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So explain to me what "eliminating bad data points" in this context means. Should MS schools not hold back failing 3rd graders The data point is the number of 3rd graders failing. If you insist in filtering out those 3rd graders, limiting your analysis to the subset of kids who didn't failed does not represent a success story. It represents an attempt to arbitrarily remove inconvenient data points to portray a fals…

I disagree, I think it points to a core educational policy difference between states. Some states will not fail a 3rd grader, and Mississippi will. This has an obvious impact on 4th grade scores, yes, but I'm willing to bet if you followed those "failed" 3rd graders in MS and compared to other states where they were pushed ahead, holding under-achieving students back is a net positive.

> (...) holding under-achieving students back is a net positive.

Even if we assume that's the case, that's not the problem.

The problem is that the school system fails to provide the necessary and sufficient services that would prevent a statistically significant number of 3rd graders from being held back. Feeling the need to hold kids back is a symptom of the problem, not a solution.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#157

Post by motorest »

secstate wrote: post #151
dkarl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At every age, there's a high attrition of students participating in competitive sports, until only a tiny elite remains. Is that what we want for reading and math?

yes, because the alternative is to have kids who can't actually read being dragged along and dragging down kids who can read. What's wrong with a tiny elite remaining if it's based on actually being able to do the work? The biggest red flag here for me is not that the tiny elite remain, it's that life circumstances will dictate that the majority of the tiny elite will continue to come from privileged families who hav…

> yes, because the alternative is to have kids who can't actually read being dragged along and dragging down kids who can read.

Failing to teach kids how to read is a failure of the school system, not the kid.

Dropping kids because the school system failed them is just yet another failure of a school system, and one which is at best a self-serving failure: a way to mask the extent of which the system is broken by blaming the victims of said system.

As an exercise, invest a few minutes thinking on why most communities do not experience this failure rate.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#158

Post by smeeth »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #130
smeeth wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's truly remarkable how much compassion liberals purport to have for the poor before, apparently without any self-awareness, saying something like this. > This article is advocating that using poverty-adjusted scores is a better way to assess student education levels. I just can't agree with that. No, it's advocating that this is a better way of assessing the quality of the education they receive. And it is. Rich k…

Compassion for the people, yes. None at all for the state that has again decided that funding for school lunches for poor children is beneath their let-them-starve ideology. Perhaps you should consider who is responsible for wellness programs in the state instead of deciding that your "this is racist" hammer is the only tool needed. Children live in poverty because the government decides it's ok. Trying to connect wh…

You wrote "culture." If you meant "politics," then write that. I'm not capable of reading your mind. Accusing me of projecting when you invoked "culture" to explain poverty in a state like Mississippi is hilarious. It's a common trope, you didn't question the accuracy of the connection, and if you'd used a different term I wouldn't have commented on it.

I encourage you to respond to the article and what people say, not what you think they believe. I've been a registered democrat my entire life, and I live in a red state. I don't need to "consider who is responsible" for policies, they're my neighbors and friends, and I have compassion for them even when I disagree with them or think their preferred policies hurt people.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#159

Post by armchairhacker »

hooverd wrote: post #117
armchairhacker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's unfair to believe someone wants you dead just because of their origin. There are millions (probably tens of millions) of rural Southerners. Many don't want you dead, but vote red because they don't feel accommodated. Many vote blue. Moreover, when somebody grows up around people who hate a certain group, it's human nature that they'll also develop hatred. What do you do with those people? I believe the best…

Ok, what parts of rural Southern culture aren't being accommodated? The rural way of life is already insanely subsidized.

I'll agree that most "neoliberals" already at least pretend to be accommodating to rural Southerners. The problem is there are too many people who are way too general in their criticism and mocking towards them, and the popular Democrats don't publicly call this out (another problem is that neoliberals are inauthentic, but that's a general problem I think for a more general discussion).

There are many examples of rural white discrimination, e.g. the FAA "personality tests" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882962#43883255) and affirmative action (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520658; it benefit blacks, but didn't benefit rural Southerners despite them being underrepresented in college).

More generally, there's an issue when you point these out someone will reply saying "but also...". I understand blacks and foreigners are also discriminated against and deserve to be accommodated. You shouldn't need to argue that whites aren't being discriminated against and are very accommodated, because there will always be some cases where it's untrue, and it doesn't really hurt black anti-discrimination efforts regardless. I'd argue that constant downplaying of white discrimination hurts black anti-discrimination efforts more, because it drives undecided people who've seen it firsthand towards those who acknowledge it, who as of today tend to be bigoted themselves. That's why I feel the need to say something about it.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#160

Post by tstrimple »

megaman821 wrote: post #66
jobs_throwaway wrote: post #32

BIG caveat that these scores are adjusted for gender, age, and race or ethnicity, free and reduced-price lunch receipt status, special education status, and English language learner status. In terms of raw scores, Mississippi is still in the bottom 10. Not really that impressive IMO.

What is a fair way to compare then? If rich Asians kids from the "best" school perform the same as the rich Asians from the "worst" school and poor Native American kids from the "best" school perform same and poor Native American kids form the "worst" school, and the only differences between the best at the worst school is the proportion of each demographic, what does that say about the quality of the shcool?

I've largely been convinced that "good schools" are just a side effect of motivated parents migrating to an area with "good schools". It has nothing at all to do with the schools or teachers themselves, but the parents with means who make decisions based on education will likely be doing other things to encourage education as well. Achieving a critical mass of children with involved parents will make a school "good".
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