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Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

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Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#151

Post by hazov »

genwin wrote: post #147
hazov wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, people also were dying in India in the 60s and 90% of the population lived on less food than they needed every day (according to Amartya Sen), Ehrlich said it would get worse with famines because of lack of resources and hundred of millions starving to death, he was wrong and Amartya Sen argued that malnutrition in India correlates more with corruption than with lack of resources. To be fair a great number of I…

> ... Africa will also improve in the long run with the advent of modern agriculture techniques. In the long run that can't be true, when the population continues increasing. There's a practical limit to agricultural yield, even if output can be tripled sometimes. You could generalize that statement as " will improve in the long run with the advent of ". The US debt can be substituted, for example. Always a better so…

A fair point, but as a statistician your case is what we use to call hasty generalization, it's a logical fallacy if you cannot argue about it from the data. If it is unsustainable you just to show that it appears to be the case.

There's data out there and from what I have read African's fertility rate is lowering, albeit a little slower than some people wished it would. We just have to wait some more years and see what happen. I believe Africa will follow the footsteps of every developing country until now and will have a society of greater urban population and lower fertility rates with economic growth. India and China are still in their way following this path.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#152

Post by 7952 »

genwin wrote: post #149
chris_wot wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fallacy. "Free food" does not create more starving children. Whilst some famines are caused by over-population, it is far more likely that they are caused by other factors such as genocide campaigns, civil wars, refugee flows and episodes of extreme violence and state collapse. Of course, if your solution to the "starving children" problem is to let them die of starvation, then you indeed have a final soluti…

Free food almost certainly causes more starving children in any country whose main religion/culture demands "be fruitful and multiply". > Whilst some famines are caused by over-population, it is far more likely that they are caused by other factors such as genocide campaigns, civil wars, refugee flows and episodes of extreme violence and state collapse. It's also likely that all those other factors are greatly exacer…

How do you know that limiting food aid would have the desired effect of limiting population growth? Do you think that people stop having sex just because their children die? I would argue that high population growth is a consequence of excessive mortality rather than the cause. This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. This has even happened in countries that have traditionally objected to contraception (Italy).

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#153

Post by 7952 »

genwin wrote: post #122
7952 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the injustice of that bother you? You are given the power to weigh up life and death, without any chance of ever starving yourself. Such naval gazing is stereotypical of people with full stomachs. Is basic human empathy such a bad reason to try and help?

> Is basic human empathy such a bad reason to try and help? If the help does more harm than good in the long run, then obviously yes. Whether a particular course of action does more harm than good is open to debate.

Catholic doctrine would teach that contraception does more harm than good. They, like you are measuring harm badly.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#154

Post by chris_wot »

option_greek wrote: post #142
chris_wot wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be blunt, I believe this is a cruel statement. What you are saying is that someone who is starving shouldn't be saved because they will grown into an adult who will have children. You then suggest that looking at the causes of population explosions should be investigated and resolved, and therefore until this is fixed then children should starve. A cruel sort of logic indeed.

IMHO, logic can only be correct or wrong. There is no such thing as cruel logic.

Well, there's a non sequitur if ever I've heard one!

I said a cruel sort of logic. His logic is wrong. Misused logic is a sort of logic. Unfortunately, his misused logic leads to cruelty. Sort of like the logic that says you need to forcibly sterilize disabled people to reduce those who have genetic abnormalities from polluting the overall population.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#155

Post by chris_wot »

7952 wrote: post #152
genwin wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free food almost certainly causes more starving children in any country whose main religion/culture demands "be fruitful and multiply". > Whilst some famines are caused by over-population, it is far more likely that they are caused by other factors such as genocide campaigns, civil wars, refugee flows and episodes of extreme violence and state collapse. It's also likely that all those other factors are greatly exacer…

How do you know that limiting food aid would have the desired effect of limiting population growth? Do you think that people stop having sex just because their children die? I would argue that high population growth is a consequence of excessive mortality rather than the cause. This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. This has even happened in countries that have traditionally ob…

He can't know that. To be clear, overpopulation is a problem - but the solution is not to stop trying to save those who are dying!

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#156

Post by nitrogen »

jonhohle wrote: post #79
Dylan16807 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my point, I want as much of the "let's fund the military-industrial complex" money as possible to go to NASA. Right now they're struggling on funding.

It seems like NASA is always "struggling" to get funding, when in reality, there have been very few years when their budget wasn't higher than the previous year[0], even when taking inflation into account. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

And yet there are still science programs canceled half way through development.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#157

Post by genwin »

7952 wrote: post #152
genwin wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free food almost certainly causes more starving children in any country whose main religion/culture demands "be fruitful and multiply". > Whilst some famines are caused by over-population, it is far more likely that they are caused by other factors such as genocide campaigns, civil wars, refugee flows and episodes of extreme violence and state collapse. It's also likely that all those other factors are greatly exacer…

How do you know that limiting food aid would have the desired effect of limiting population growth? Do you think that people stop having sex just because their children die? I would argue that high population growth is a consequence of excessive mortality rather than the cause. This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. This has even happened in countries that have traditionally ob…

You can search for the article "Why Foreign Aid Is Hurting Africa", which says "Aid is an unmitigated political, economic and humanitarian disaster." I can't prove that aid including its free food form contributes to population growth. I'm confident that it does from my studies.

> This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development.

I would argue that development follows a dropping birth rate, not the other way around. Poor people with 4+ kids can't contribute to development or otherwise improve their future. They're too busy each day focusing on basic survival. Unlike many African countries, Italy solved their cultural/religion problem. Now they largely ignore the Catholic Church on contraceptive issues.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#158

Post by chris_wot »

genwin wrote: post #157
7952 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that limiting food aid would have the desired effect of limiting population growth? Do you think that people stop having sex just because their children die? I would argue that high population growth is a consequence of excessive mortality rather than the cause. This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. This has even happened in countries that have traditionally ob…

You can search for the article "Why Foreign Aid Is Hurting Africa", which says "Aid is an unmitigated political, economic and humanitarian disaster." I can't prove that aid including its free food form contributes to population growth. I'm confident that it does from my studies. > This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. I would argue that development follows a dropping birth rat…

Make up your mind. Is it a problem with their religion, or is it a problem with free food for the starving?

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#159

Post by genwin »

chris_wot wrote: post #158
genwin wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can search for the article "Why Foreign Aid Is Hurting Africa", which says "Aid is an unmitigated political, economic and humanitarian disaster." I can't prove that aid including its free food form contributes to population growth. I'm confident that it does from my studies. > This is evident in the drop in birth rate that tends to accompany development. I would argue that development follows a dropping birth rat…

Make up your mind. Is it a problem with their religion, or is it a problem with free food for the starving?

There's no contradiction. Religion/culture is the root cause of the problem. Free food makes the problem worse.

Re: Why Explore Space? A 1970 Letter to a Nun in Africa.

#160

Post by nivla »

genwin wrote: post #159
chris_wot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make up your mind. Is it a problem with their religion, or is it a problem with free food for the starving?

There's no contradiction. Religion/culture is the root cause of the problem. Free food makes the problem worse.

You have pretty much repeated that in every comment of yours in this thread. Hope we all could have a healthy discussion without gross generalizations and prevent Ycombinator HN from turning into another r/atheism.
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