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North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

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Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#151

Post by dttze »

infecto wrote: post #149
dttze wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re making broad, sweeping generalizations based off biased videos. If this is a flat earth discussion, you’re the flat earther.

I get it, nuance is hard, but this isn’t nuance, it’s lazy contrarianism. You’re not defending truth, you’re just allergic to anyone speaking plainly about a brutal dictatorship. If you’ve got a credible counterpoint, make it. Otherwise, tossing out “bias” like it’s a trump card isn’t an argument, it’s a dodge.

Once again, you made broad generalizations based off some videos you saw (who even knows how biased or truthful they were). You know nothing of NK and yet here you are confidently making statements about it and its people.

It is typical western chauvinism and it is embarrassing to read you try to pretend it isn't.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#152

Post by infecto »

dttze wrote: post #151
infecto wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, nuance is hard, but this isn’t nuance, it’s lazy contrarianism. You’re not defending truth, you’re just allergic to anyone speaking plainly about a brutal dictatorship. If you’ve got a credible counterpoint, make it. Otherwise, tossing out “bias” like it’s a trump card isn’t an argument, it’s a dodge.

Once again, you made broad generalizations based off some videos you saw (who even knows how biased or truthful they were). You know nothing of NK and yet here you are confidently making statements about it and its people. It is typical western chauvinism and it is embarrassing to read you try to pretend it isn't.

Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation.

Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, it’s nihilism in a moral disguise.

You say I “know nothing” about North Korea. Maybe not everything. But I know enough to not reflexively defend a regime that starves its people while building monuments to a cult of personality. If that makes you uncomfortable, good.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#153

Post by dttze »

infecto wrote: post #152
dttze wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, you made broad generalizations based off some videos you saw (who even knows how biased or truthful they were). You know nothing of NK and yet here you are confidently making statements about it and its people. It is typical western chauvinism and it is embarrassing to read you try to pretend it isn't.

Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, i…

>Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation.

Gotta call a spade a spade sometimes, sorry bud.

>Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, it’s nihilism in a moral disguise.

This isn't even an argument. You read things? Wow, me too. I read NK is awesome. They are trying to sustain their nation. Your repeating of biased western propaganda uncritically is the nihilism.

> You say I “know nothing” about North Korea. Maybe not everything. But I know enough to not reflexively defend a regime that starves its people while building monuments to a cult of personality. If that makes you uncomfortable, good.

I never even defended them. Just pointed out your ignorance and racism. Cheers. Nice edit btw.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#154

Post by infecto »

dttze wrote: post #153
infecto wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, i…

>Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Gotta call a spade a spade sometimes, sorry bud. >Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea c…

Thank you for finally bringing your silly antics to a conclusion. Sorry I don’t appreciate NK like you do but since you have no counterpoints and simply should trust you instead of reports from various NGOs and the UN you have run out of steam.

The racist card is boring and over used. Build a backbone and a real opinion.

We have decades of reports regarding NK please go elsewhere with your conspiracies.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#155

Post by slt2021 »

leereeves wrote: post #145
slt2021 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, just literally if you run a poll among United Nations members, people would rate the statement like "China occupies Tibet" and "USA occupies Texas" as the same delusional things - fantasy detached from reality

What are you basing that statement on? Was there are actually a UN vote, or are you just BSing?

did UN recognize tibet as occupied country or are you bsing?

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#156

Post by plsbenice34 »

firecall wrote: post #133
throwaway_ab wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is true and a good point. As an Australian when the government passed that law it hurt so much, like a betrayal of enormous magnitude, it's disgusting. I suppose one difference is that I can fight the government legally on the issue and am more free in many ways to resist, especially as I'm not employed by the state. But I do agree, on the scale (0-1?) of how much your government can take away your liberty…

Except it’s not true. https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...

It is. The actual text of the law makes it very clear and it has been discussed a lot. That Home Affairs webpage that tries to spin it is yet another disturbing sign.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#157

Post by infecto »

atoav wrote: post #63
donnachangstein wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing Australia to... North Korea?

It is a comparison between a North Korean practise to an apparently similar Australian practise. The ideology each state has nothing to do with the risk coming from employing people who can be compelled to follow such rules.

Surprising we have so many NK sympathizers here. We have decades of reporting for different groups and yet here we are defending NK and calling folks racists.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#158

Post by keybored »

infecto wrote: post #150
keybored wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Numerous different documentaries and individual travel videos. Like all things there is a bias but I am also not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting North Koreans are not subject to massive amounts of propaganda and indoctrination into this idea of the supreme leader? North Korea is famously one of the most closed-off countries in the world. Its Western-aligned neighbor is officially still at war with it. B…

You spent a lot of words saying “nobody knows anything” while conveniently ignoring the mountains of defectors’ testimonies, satellite imagery, and reports from human rights orgs that paint a bleak but consistent picture. But sure, let’s pretend the real problem is me not being epistemologically pure enough about the world’s most repressive regime. Your entire comment boils down to: “We can’t trust any sources, so ho…

I should gather my thoughts and focus my statement now that I recalled why I made it to begin with. I was really mostly curious specifically why you were so certain about the “lifetime of propaganda” and what it can do to the mind. Being a closed society we don’t have access to North Koreans to just talk to. You have defectors who are outliers. Secondly, taking the statement about the propaganda at face value, the next problem is what it does to the mind. Because we can’t point to people praising “the dear leader” or whatever in public as proof of the inner life of someone. If they live in such an authoritarian hellhole then they will have to say that just to survive. So is it a lifetime of propaganda? Or are they just getting by?

The next point would be juxtapose the lifetime of propaganda with your complete and unwavering certainty about the state of mind in the hermit kingdom, but you don’t seem quite ready for that.

Now to your reply here. There’s too many muddied points, too many strawmen to go into in detail without boring you in turn. So I won’t. But notice that I haven’t even defended North Korea. In fact one of the points I made was how they will sheepherd tourists. My comment was 80% epistemological, as you say. And your response? Talking about “the Utopia” of the DMZ? Oh wait, that’s exactly the phrase you brought up to someone else[1] and they too never ever said that North Korea was a great place to live (only that the narrative was “racist”).

So why go into these epistemological sleep study sessions? Because as evidenced by the conversation in [2], you (but also serving as an example because this is far from unique) will dismiss people who question the narrative of the OP, namely “The FBI reported the money funds nuclear weapons and operations”. This is perfectly germane to the topic: is this a thing of concern or is it a convenient narrative? You dismiss that as a “conspiracy” in your reply and waffle on about “sure, other countries do bad things, but NK worse”. Your dismissal has got nothing to do with the topic, though. The topic is not if NK is a fantastic place to live, a “utopia” or whatever. The topic is if they did something that other countries don’t do.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43618677

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43618503

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#159

Post by keybored »

slt2021 wrote: post #79
throwaway2037 wrote: post #13

This part is genius: > Nowadays, Leggio told Fortune he won’t even set up an interview with a candidate who seems promising on paper unless they agree to one final step. “Say something negative about Kim Jong Un,” Leggio tells potential job candidates, referring to the third-generation authoritarian Supreme Leader of North Korea, officially the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK). Through research, Leggio le…

Russia/Ukraine has similar gotcha screening question: "Crimea belongs to ... whom?" pro-Russians will try to weasel and twist themselves into pretzel justifying Crimea annexation. Pro-Ukraine will have the opposite answer. similar thing in USA: try to force any US public figure to condemn genocide in Gaza or apartheid in Palestine... and you will be deported, canceled, and debunked on the spot. or try to ask any US p…

You’re comparing politicans to regular people. Politicans have a vested interest in saying very specific things (in public) in order to maintain their myriad of alliances. Regular people that you accost in the street can say whatever they like, lie if it is convenient, if it furthers their own goals. Yes, Eastern Europeans have the ability to lie and aren’t bots programmed by Zelensky/Putin.[1]

[1] Not that they will necessarily believe or be on the same page as what the government says but we can stop here.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#160

Post by infecto »

keybored wrote: post #158
infecto wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spent a lot of words saying “nobody knows anything” while conveniently ignoring the mountains of defectors’ testimonies, satellite imagery, and reports from human rights orgs that paint a bleak but consistent picture. But sure, let’s pretend the real problem is me not being epistemologically pure enough about the world’s most repressive regime. Your entire comment boils down to: “We can’t trust any sources, so ho…

I should gather my thoughts and focus my statement now that I recalled why I made it to begin with. I was really mostly curious specifically why you were so certain about the “lifetime of propaganda” and what it can do to the mind. Being a closed society we don’t have access to North Koreans to just talk to. You have defectors who are outliers. Secondly, taking the statement about the propaganda at face value, the ne…

You write a novel to say “we can’t really know,” then act like that’s some brave intellectual stance. It’s not. It’s just a way to dodge moral clarity.

Defectors are “outliers”? Of course they are—it’s a police state. That’s how tyranny works. You don’t get a representative sample when dissent gets you killed.

You’re not offering insight. You’re drowning basic truths in a flood of words to avoid saying anything with weight. At some point, skepticism becomes cowardice.

Say less. Mean more.

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