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France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

arstechnica.com

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Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#151

Post by zdragnar »

ajross wrote: post #131
dkga wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but are consumers that knowingly bought into the Apple ecosystem harmed?

Were Windows 98 users "harmed" because IE5 was bundled with the OS? They "knowingly bought into the Microsoft ecosystem", after all. Clearly the consensus is that YES , they were harmed, and the proof is the Web 2.0 revolution driven by the eventually broken browser monopoly by Firefox and Chrome. But at the time the tech industry trenches were filled with platform fans cheering Gates et. al. and claiming sincerely t…

Microsoft basically invented AJAX and spurred the entire web 2.0 revolution. Other browsers weren't prevented from being installed.

Compare what Apple does on iDevices. Safari comes pre-installed, and every competing browser can only skin the OS engine; competing browsers can't actually port their own offerings. On top of that, if you actually want to sell a browser, Apple will get a cut of your sales.

And yet, Apple's app store and ecosystem doesn't seem to be treated as a monopoly in this regard. If not here, why wouldn't they also get away with all of their other anti-competitive practices?

FWIW, I think they should be treated consistently as a monopoly. As a backup option, I'll settle for consistently treated as not-a-monopoly.

Mixing and matching rulings will only serve to hurt in the long run.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#152

Post by sitkack »

tedunangst wrote: post #56
nottorp wrote: post #2

Actually Apple were fined because they don't apply the same standard to their own pop-ups that allow users to reject tracking. On Apple popups you seem to need one click, while on 3rd party popups you need to confirm twice. So the fine seems to be for treating 3rd parties differently from their own stuff. They could make their own popups require double confirmation instead...

I'm actually okay with the Apple Camera app asking me once and the Domino's Pizza app having to ask me twice. Who are the consumers being harmed here?

You should decide for everyone whether Apple gets a pass.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#153

Post by sitkack »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #33
gruez wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely check on whether the user answered yes to the prompt, because if they declined you'll get a null (ie. all 0s) uuid. Whether app developers can rely on that as confirmation for tracking on their side is a purely legal question, and I wish the French government would try to resolve it on their side rather than going straight to fining Apple.

As a European Apple user I welcome any and all fines that can be levied on Apple for their anticompetitive practices.

I agree, Apple is enshittifying itself at the speed of light. They are were the least worst, but with a competitor like Android ...

All I want is a decent map and signal and sometimes a browser.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#154

Post by Retric »

Retric wrote: post #80
pests wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what it is. They were asking who was harmed.

Double conformation would presumably help Dominoes as it would encourage people to accept tracking.

To clarify across 10’s of millions of people even slight inconvenience really does push people to accept 3rd party tracking.

There’s a lot of dark patterns websites use because AB testing shows even slightly more effort works.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#155

Post by sitkack »

TheJoeMan wrote: post #38
drivebyhooting wrote: post #11

Do other apps require double consent or is it actually a dark pattern they’ve adopted: * explain and prompt the user for consent * if they acquiesce pop the real modal * otherwise bide your time and try again later The reason for this is because once you receive a rejection in the official modal you are not allowed to ask again.

Or snapchat repeatedly asking for my contacts access knowing it’s denied.

Or WhatsApp not allowing you name contacts unless you gave it access to your entire address book so FB can have your entire FOAF graph.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#156

Post by mattmein »

simion314 wrote: post #83
tedunangst wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we have regulations? Who do they benefit?

>Why do we have regulations? Who do they benefit? Weird you still have no idea why. So let me tell you, there was a tribe in a village and they had many rules, some young boys hated the rules so they left and made their own village with no rules. One day one of them made a fire and let it unsupervised and many of their shacks burned so the boys decided that there should be one rule about not letting fires unsupervise…

There's a WKUK comedy sketch that fits this story pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibDNwF8bjs

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#157

Post by wpm »

briandear wrote: post #115
burnte wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be ok with it, but the regulators want Apple to treat third parties the same way they treat their own apps, and that's a good thing. Either everyone would generate two prompts, or no one, but excluding yourself is just favoritism.

Apple doesn’t have a track record of abusing user privacy, unlike the plethora of third party apps that want to aggressively track you and sell that data.

I don't care. We don't have to wait for Apple to show they're untrustworthy before we hold them at arm's length like we hold any other app developer or advertiser.

Apple has convinced a lot of people through sheer PR force that they are 100% trustworthy and therefore all of their restrictions and self-bypasses of those restrictions are warranted. Either all of it is OK, or none of it is, unless Apple enjoys getting it wrong and getting fined.

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#158

Post by autoexec »

briandear wrote: post #115
burnte wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be ok with it, but the regulators want Apple to treat third parties the same way they treat their own apps, and that's a good thing. Either everyone would generate two prompts, or no one, but excluding yourself is just favoritism.

Apple doesn’t have a track record of abusing user privacy, unlike the plethora of third party apps that want to aggressively track you and sell that data.

Apple's track record on privacy isn't really much better than Google's.

Google and Facebook also insist that they never sell the massive amounts of personal data they collect on their users.

That doesn't mean that your data isn't being exposed to random people or that it isn't being used against you.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-con...

Re: France fines Apple €150M for “excessive” pop-ups that let users reject tracking

#160

Post by ATMLOTTOBEER »

gruez wrote: post #32
ipaddr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One benefits directly while the other doesn't. Plus many people complained.

>One benefits directly while the other doesn't. That's the exact of cynicism I'm talking about. It doesn't matter whether banning third party was good for users or not, only whether Google (or Mozilla) stood to benefit. This is absolutely toxic because it means objectively good changes get shouted down. > Plus many people complained. For what, Firefox?

Chrome never actually did away with third party cookies
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