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Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

world-nuclear-news.org

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Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#151

Post by rob74 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

BTW, Ukraine already had nuclear weapons, but agreed to give them up for security guarantees by the US, the UK, France and Russia (!) in 1994: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#152

Post by Hnrobert42 »

lovegrenoble wrote: post #135
mpweiher wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually: it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

While CNN's assertion that Russia's economy is on par with Italy's in nominal GDP may be technically accurate, it does not fully consider the economic nuances that are crucial to a comprehensive analysis. This is an example of propaganda.

I don't understand why you are so animated by this issue. What am I missing? Propaganda about what?

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#153

Post by ModernMech »

snailmailstare wrote: post #118
snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

Apologies to Mr Kurzweil, but I think the reality on the ground is that the cost of research into keeping an aging population alive is a raised risk of Armageddon. The political tendencies in older age demographics is bad, the politicians surviving so many decades after a first to leadership position is bad, the billionaires living long enough to find whacky ideas or even directly manipulate politics instead of gifti…

Actually I believe a not small part of what's happening now is boomer politicians who have been in power too long realizing their time is coming to an end one way or another, and they are refusing to give it up to the younger generations. Trump and Putin in particular have every reason to be as unreasonable as possible if they believe either way there is no future for them if they stop.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#154

Post by lifeinthevoid »

jsiepkes wrote: post #149
snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

the Netherlands has nukes in loan from the US. They are at Volkel Airbase. Officially it's a secret, but it's common knowledge and was also confirmed by a former prime-minister. In exchange for these loaned nuclear weapons the Netherlands promised not to develop nuclear weapons of their own. With the US now showing they are not afraid of doing a "rug pull" on agreements, one starts to wonder if the Netherlands should…

Are the Netherlands able to control these devices? I would be very surprised if that were the case.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#155

Post by snowwrestler »

jsiepkes wrote: post #149
snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

the Netherlands has nukes in loan from the US. They are at Volkel Airbase. Officially it's a secret, but it's common knowledge and was also confirmed by a former prime-minister. In exchange for these loaned nuclear weapons the Netherlands promised not to develop nuclear weapons of their own. With the US now showing they are not afraid of doing a "rug pull" on agreements, one starts to wonder if the Netherlands should…

Yes, when Trump complains about NATO most people hear dollars, tanks, and planes, but European leaders hear the nuclear deterrent.

This is one reason Britain and France are out front right now on matters of European security.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#156

Post by throwaway48476 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

Here's a list of countries with a nuclear industry but no nuclear weapons program.

Taiwan South Korea Japan Germany Sweden Italy UK (not counting trident) Ukraine

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#157

Post by mandmandam »

miklosz wrote: post #94

Oh, I hoped it's about nuclear weapons. Pitty, it's not. Now, as US is slowly leaving NATO, European countries should urgently work on increasing their nuclear capabilities, developing strategic and tactical nuclear weapons and means of delivery (rockets, bombers, submarines).

> Oh, I hoped it's about nuclear weapons. Pitty, it's not.

If you were going to resume work on nuclear weapons, would you announce it immediately? ... Or would you say that you're developing your nuclear power capabilities.

There are well established historical lines here to be read between.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#158

Post by lqet »

jsiepkes wrote: post #149
snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

the Netherlands has nukes in loan from the US. They are at Volkel Airbase. Officially it's a secret, but it's common knowledge and was also confirmed by a former prime-minister. In exchange for these loaned nuclear weapons the Netherlands promised not to develop nuclear weapons of their own. With the US now showing they are not afraid of doing a "rug pull" on agreements, one starts to wonder if the Netherlands should…

> With the US now showing they are not afraid of doing a "rug pull" on agreements, one starts to wonder if the Netherlands shouldn't start development of nuclear weapons again.

This discussion is already looming in Germany, especially now that Elon Musk openly wants the US to leave NATO. There is a standing offer by Macron for Germany to go under French nuclear protection. The UK also appears to be more than willing to fill in the nuclear vacuum left by the US. If things continue the path of the last 2-3 weeks, I am sure that at some point there will be a discussion about whether Germany should prepare to be able to at least build nuclear weapons quickly.

I have a feeling that Canada has similar thoughts. I wonder what would happen if they started developing nuclear weapons. The US president already announced he would make Canada the 51st state, and around 25% of Canadians saw the US as an enemy country 2 weeks ago [0]

Strategically, it does not make any sense to me. I am pretty sure that the Russians are just as confused. I wonder if there is a historic precedent of a country giving up a functioning empire voluntarily, without any internal or external pressure to do so.

[0] https://www.newsweek.com/canada-us-relations-enemy-poll-tari...

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#159

Post by throwaway48476 »

lifeinthevoid wrote: post #154
jsiepkes wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Netherlands has nukes in loan from the US. They are at Volkel Airbase. Officially it's a secret, but it's common knowledge and was also confirmed by a former prime-minister. In exchange for these loaned nuclear weapons the Netherlands promised not to develop nuclear weapons of their own. With the US now showing they are not afraid of doing a "rug pull" on agreements, one starts to wonder if the Netherlands should…

Are the Netherlands able to control these devices? I would be very surprised if that were the case.

Codes are not given and are only in America.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#160

Post by snailmailstare »

ModernMech wrote: post #153
snailmailstare wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies to Mr Kurzweil, but I think the reality on the ground is that the cost of research into keeping an aging population alive is a raised risk of Armageddon. The political tendencies in older age demographics is bad, the politicians surviving so many decades after a first to leadership position is bad, the billionaires living long enough to find whacky ideas or even directly manipulate politics instead of gifti…

Actually I believe a not small part of what's happening now is boomer politicians who have been in power too long realizing their time is coming to an end one way or another, and they are refusing to give it up to the younger generations. Trump and Putin in particular have every reason to be as unreasonable as possible if they believe either way there is no future for them if they stop.

These people should not expect to be alive in 10 years so if a trick for getting a few more months at the top means their country is nuked in 10-30 years, whatever.
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