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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#151

Post by timeon »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144
xenospn wrote: post #70

[flagged]

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

Either way, if this continues, Americans will not be welcomed there. So point about visit still stands.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#153

Post by lukashoff »

inglor_cz wrote: post #147
jesterson wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Buy a plane ticket and see it for yourself. There is a demographic deficit in the Baltics, but it is only visible in rural areas and third-tier cities. Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius, Kaunas and Klaipeda are absolutely lively and prosperous cities full of people, including youngsters (no surprise, because both the jobs and the universities are there).

There's also been a population growth, albeit small, but it's happening. Thanks to migration and to the economies actually being HEALTHY people start to have more babies. The IT and innovation that comes from there as well. It's not much but it's extremely effective.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#154

Post by GJim »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144
xenospn wrote: post #70

[flagged]

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

> Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat?

Putin will find it much easier to wage war in Europe if Trump pulls out and takes the USA into isolationism (so abandoning the western democracies).

And he will find it much easier to do this if he starts before Europe has a chance to re-arm.

That is the logic you fail to see.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#155

Post by inglor_cz »

watwut wrote: post #149
inglor_cz wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how Russia would a) be willing to join a US-led coalition against China, given that the US foreign policy stopped being consistent and the next administration may well make a sharp turn again; b) be capable of joining a US-led coalition against China when they now spent 3 years slowly restructuring their infrastructure and industry from Western products to Chinese products and any break in the relations w…

> Not to mention that Russian nationalists HATE the idea of Russia being a junior partner to anyone and especially to the Anglo-Saxons. That would be hard sell even from Putin. America would be the junior partner. I do not see Russia doing anything for America, it is just America giving Russia what they want.

Politically maybe, but as far as raw force goes, Russians have been reduced to deploying donkeys in battlefield logistics. That is a big capability gap, and won't be easily bridged.

The next POTUS may not be as prostrate to Russia as Trump is, even if a Republican.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#156

Post by zfg »

jesterson wrote: post #134
AlecSchueler wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it "the endless war" makes this a loaded question. You might get a more productive response without that.

Not sure why you are trying to veer the convo in another direction, but to address it - it's been 3 years, hundreds of thousands died, and absolutely nothing achieved. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Russia's stated intention is to destroy the Ukrainian nation and to erase Ukrainian identity. Putin believes Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people:

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russia...

Putin believed he could flip Ukraine in three days. Three years later Ukraine is still explaining to him that he is wrong.

Ukraine is fighting an existential war of independence. And for three years, despite having a larger population and a larger military, Russia has failed to wipe Ukraine off the map.

America is making the wrong choice in submitting to Russian aggression and in becoming a Russian ally. It's grubby stuff.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#157

Post by citrin_ru »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144
xenospn wrote: post #70

[flagged]

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

The current situation is a stalemate. The US suddently flipping sides will shift the balance and it's hard to predict how far Trump will go in supporting Putin.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#158

Post by rdm_blackhole »

GJim wrote: post #154
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

> Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? Putin will find it much easier to wage war in Europe if Trump pulls out and takes the USA into isolationism (so abandoning the western democracies). And he will find it much easier to do this if he starts before Europe has a chance to re-arm. Tha…

> Putin will find it much easier to wage war in Europe if Trump pulls out and takes the USA into isolationism (so abandoning the western democracies). And he will find it much easier to do this if he starts before Europe has a chance to re-arm.

It still does not explain how he is supposed to do that while he is bogged down in Ukraine.

You answer doe not provide any shred of evidence that is what his plans are. You are just speculating.

Opening multiple fronts in a war when you are not making progress does not make any sense. Putin is probably not the sharpest tool in the shed but I am pretty sure that even he knows that.

Finally, France and the UK both have nukes and are the allies of the Baltic states so an attack is highly unlikely unless the MAD doctrine is broken.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#159

Post by inglor_cz »

lukashoff wrote: post #153
inglor_cz wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy a plane ticket and see it for yourself. There is a demographic deficit in the Baltics, but it is only visible in rural areas and third-tier cities. Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius, Kaunas and Klaipeda are absolutely lively and prosperous cities full of people, including youngsters (no surprise, because both the jobs and the universities are there).

There's also been a population growth, albeit small, but it's happening. Thanks to migration and to the economies actually being HEALTHY people start to have more babies. The IT and innovation that comes from there as well. It's not much but it's extremely effective.

Yep, I agree that the Baltics punch above their weight.

They are also more laissez-faire in the good sense, not overburdening their economies with endless paper pushing (a French and German disease so to say), while keeping the environment reasonably protected.

The rest of Europe could do worse than emulate their approach.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#160

Post by ty6853 »

stuffoverflow wrote: post #142
jesterson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are trying to veer the convo in another direction, but to address it - it's been 3 years, hundreds of thousands died, and absolutely nothing achieved. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ukraine has retained its independence. That's a big achievement on its own.

If they are independent then they won't need to rely on being propped up by American taxpayers to survive. Because if they did, they'd be dependent not independent.
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