Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 181 posts

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#151

Post by bluedevil2k »

ceejayoz wrote: post #70
bluedevil2k wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

Unless they kneel for the anthem, of course.

I’m guessing you’re referring to Colin Kaepernick? The dude went 2-14 his last year in the NFL! 2-14!!! That fact always seems to be left out by people claiming “racism”. The fact that he didn’t get another job is because sports is a meritocracy and he sucked, not because of his race or any DEI issue.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#152

Post by bluedevil2k »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #142
bluedevil2k wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

Coaching hires and selection process in more recent history. I'd also argue that Venus and Serena Williams were a prerequisite to Coco Gauff. That's the point of representation: to make it easier for the meritocracy to work by creating a path for talent that might otherwise not consider a field (or sport, in this case). In many cases with minorities, what we see are extraordinary individuals who are able to shatter t…

> Professional sports is a meritocracy that for decades excluded other non-white races from participating

I’m sorry, you don’t get to argue that modern sports aren’t a true meritocracy because of policies that existed 80 years ago. You’re also putting too much into the selection process, implying that there’s active efforts to exclude, for example, blacks from hockey. I’d argue it’s more a result of cultural preferences - basketball and football see much higher participation and enthusiasm.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#153

Post by CharlieDigital »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #152
CharlieDigital wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coaching hires and selection process in more recent history. I'd also argue that Venus and Serena Williams were a prerequisite to Coco Gauff. That's the point of representation: to make it easier for the meritocracy to work by creating a path for talent that might otherwise not consider a field (or sport, in this case). In many cases with minorities, what we see are extraordinary individuals who are able to shatter t…

> Professional sports is a meritocracy that for decades excluded other non-white races from participating I’m sorry, you don’t get to argue that modern sports aren’t a true meritocracy because of policies that existed 80 years ago. You’re also putting too much into the selection process, implying that there’s active efforts to exclude, for example, blacks from hockey. I’d argue it’s more a result of cultural preferen…

I didn't argue that modern sports aren't a meritocracy; the exact opposite. Modern sports are a meritocracy at the player level precisely because of the efforts to make it inclusive in the 20th century. Look at the sport of baseball, basketball, and football in the early 20th century. Look at the history of racism and exclusion in each of these sports and the efforts by extraordinary individuals to shift them towards merit and not race. The Negro Leagues were a thing not that long ago.

It might behoove you to take a quick recap of the history of racism (exclusion) in sports: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Robinson#Negro_leagues_...

Modern sports at the coaching level is a more recent shift to meritocracy through a concerted effort to include minority candidates in the hiring process. It is only a meritocracy today because of extraordinary individuals like Jackie Robinson breaking the barriers and decades of integration.

    > ...there’s active efforts to exclude, for example, blacks from hockey.
Exclusion works in many ways. Two of which are access and socioeconomic stratification. The reason why there aren't many minority hockey players can probably be easily traced to access and socioeconomic reasons. Go on Google Maps and search for ice rinks and then basketball courts. Find a "free" community ice rink. Now go find free community basketball courts, soccer fields, or any open space for football. There simply aren't as many ice rinks where there are minority populations are concentrated and the cost of access is high compared to alternatives like soccer, football, baseball, and basketball. The process is self-selecting and exclusionary through lack of access and cost.

Tiger Woods would not be Tiger Woods had his father not had access to Navy golf courses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods#Early_life_and_ama...

Is there a specific reason why Carribean islands produce so many great baseball players and not so many hockey players? Think about that.

Jeremy Lin's story is also an interesting one because he talks a lot about how many schools, coaches, and scouts were prejudiced against Asian basketball players. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin#College_career

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#154

Post by bluedevil2k »

MisterKent wrote: post #100
bluedevil2k wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

What an ignorant take. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line https://operations.nfl.com/inside-football-ops/players-legen...

Wow, your counterpoint is about discrimination in sports 80 YEARS ago. Barely anyone alive even remembers segregated baseball firsthand. You seem to be backing my point even more that sports have been a true meritocracy for many generations now.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#155

Post by bluedevil2k »

edmundsauto wrote: post #73
bluedevil2k wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

I have a more nuanced take on whether professional sports are actually a meritocracy. It depends on the level at which you look. Yes, in any given event it’s generally fair to say the rules are equitable. However, look at golf - we can either accept white people have some genetic advantage, or that access is not equal and the best talent never got a chance to develop. This could be extended to other leagues as well.…

Access is not equal or interest is not equal? Minority participation in golf skyrocketed after Tiger Woods, but I’d argue the best athletes still far preferred basketball, football, etc over golf. Your argument also falls apart if you look at golf as a whole, where Asian women dominate the LPGA.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#156

Post by bluedevil2k »

ceejayoz wrote: post #99
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look at golf Tiger Woods is probably the only professional golfer that the average person knows by name.

Fairness requires more than a single anecdote/aberration.

60% of the LPGA are Asian…is that more than a single anecdote??

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#157

Post by ceejayoz »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #156
ceejayoz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairness requires more than a single anecdote/aberration.

60% of the LPGA are Asian…is that more than a single anecdote??

That roughly matches the proportion of humans who are Asian.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#158

Post by bluedevil2k »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #153
bluedevil2k wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professional sports is a meritocracy that for decades excluded other non-white races from participating I’m sorry, you don’t get to argue that modern sports aren’t a true meritocracy because of policies that existed 80 years ago. You’re also putting too much into the selection process, implying that there’s active efforts to exclude, for example, blacks from hockey. I’d argue it’s more a result of cultural preferen…

I didn't argue that modern sports aren't a meritocracy; the exact opposite. Modern sports are a meritocracy at the player level precisely because of the efforts to make it inclusive in the 20th century . Look at the sport of baseball, basketball, and football in the early 20th century. Look at the history of racism and exclusion in each of these sports and the efforts by extraordinary individuals to shift them toward…

> The process is self-selecting

Isn’t this the opposite of DEI then? There’s “momentum” in sports - kids want to play what their heroes play, Dominicans have Dominican baseball heroes and play baseball. There’s nothing DEI about that.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#159

Post by CharlieDigital »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #158
CharlieDigital wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't argue that modern sports aren't a meritocracy; the exact opposite. Modern sports are a meritocracy at the player level precisely because of the efforts to make it inclusive in the 20th century . Look at the sport of baseball, basketball, and football in the early 20th century. Look at the history of racism and exclusion in each of these sports and the efforts by extraordinary individuals to shift them toward…

> The process is self-selecting Isn’t this the opposite of DEI then? There’s “momentum” in sports - kids want to play what their heroes play, Dominicans have Dominican baseball heroes and play baseball. There’s nothing DEI about that.

It's called "access"

The process is self-selecting because it is not merit based; it is based on access and economic factors. It's not that black Americans or Hispanic Americans have no talent for hockey, it's that they have no access so the sport is "self-selecting" wealthier, white athletes who have access and the economics to start and sustain the sport from a young age. To make this a meritocracy, it requires inclusion (I'm not advocating for this, but simply as a thought experiment). Imagine if every community had plenty of free ice rinks on the same order as basketball courts. Do you think the racial composition of the sport of hockey would remain the same?

Tiger Woods would not be Tiger Woods if his dad didn't have access to Navy golf courses.

If you think the reason we don't see many Dominican hockey players is because they have no talent for the sport and not because of access, then well, I don't think this conversation is of any use; you already have it in your mind that because professional hockey is predominantly white, only white players have the merit or talent for the sport.

If you don't have access, it is not a meritocracy. That is the intent of DEI: to improve access and enable meritocracy.

The practice of DEI at any individual org is a different story.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#160

Post by raxxorraxor »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #32
JCM9 wrote: post #13

The AI items are concerning. The DEI stuff though is gone and isn’t coming back. The concept was well intentioned but, quite ironically, these programs turned into a hub of biased discriminatory behavior and it was becoming increasingly hard to paint them as anything else.

> these programs turned into a hub of biased discriminatory behavior Professional sports went through a "DEI" phase. Despite some rough patches, I'd say that it worked out for the better as a whole if you look at it in retrospect. Similarly, individual companies may have fumbled DEI initiatives, but years on, I think it will have had a (small) positive impact.

DEI created a lot of bad blood and even more prejudices than before. People will be accused of being DEI hires for years and some groups are now under more heavy scrutiny than before. Sure, if you reduce your perspective on the prevalence of your own artificial metrics like skin color, the numbers might look better.

The concept of using discrimination against discrimination wasn't even new, but it was never successful. Quite analogous to violence for that matter.

All in all it was a vanity project and it destroyed trust in academia and the press that defended such initiatives, pushed for censorship and tried to dictate language rules. I would argue that the political costs were quite immense and the effects still persist today given the shift towards more right leaning parties throughout the western world.

Post reply on HN