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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

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Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#151

Post by gottorf »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #83
thomassmith65 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is no excuse for the Canadian housing shortage. Canada is one of the world's largest land masses, and - even in its South - mainly uninhabited.

They’re over regulated. All the geography and materials in the world. They aren’t building because they can’t do it affordably. My friends in Vancouver had a vacant lot in a prime area and money. They had to wait for three years to be approved to start.

This seems to be a problem especially concentrated in the Anglosphere. Britain[0], Canada, Australia, and to a lesser degree in the US due to its libertarian streak. I wonder why that's the case?

[0]: https://ukfoundations.co/

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#152

Post by b112 »

margalabargala wrote: post #19
user3939382 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like political venting more than a financial analysis.

The parent specified in Europe. It's a fact that in January 2025, European Tesla sales have had significant YoY declines, attributed to Musk's political activity. A greater than 50% drop in sales in France and Germany, for example. Here are a couple sources. https://www.ft.com/content/ea2329e4-b4bc-4e2d-be34-e9a8ea311... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/05/business/tesla-germany-el...

I cannot read the FT article, but the nyt article says sales have halved, and are now under 2k per month in Germany.

So it sounds like their sakes were tiny before this halving. And with numbers that low, one ad campaign or new model by VW could change them.

His donations to parties in Germany seems like a weird reason why. He's done all sorts of things in the past, and sales went up.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#153

Post by gottorf »

margalabargala wrote: post #14
tahoeskibum wrote: post #6

Nissan, Honda & eventually Toyota are going to go the way of Nokia/Motorola after iPhone came out. Cheap and reliable Chinese EVs will take over the market (like Android), while Tesla will probably maintain a halo premium product like iPhone.

Tesla gained a reputation of being the best EVs around, by virtue of being essentially the only company making EVs able to truly replace a gas car for close to a decade. It's easy to be the best in a category with just one competitor. Now that other companies are making EVs that compete directly with Tesla, they aren't reliably best-in-class or best-in-price-point anymore. Compare the Rivian R1T to the Cybertruck, or…

> their CEO throws Nazi salutes at political rallies

Come now, even the Anti-Defamation League, hardly a habitual supporter of Musk, disagrees with this take. Your opinions are your own and you're free to believe he did Nazi salutes, but it does make you sound like you have an axe to grind.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#154

Post by teleforce »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #109
thuddrff567gg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

> The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there

I'm not sure about your statement here after the wet timing belt inside engine debacle for many European cars engines including Renault that's still existed until today. It's a total disregards of the laws on material physics and chemistry [1], [2].

[1] Wet Belt in Oil Engines: Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made [video]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SASSFjIt5I

[2] Why So Many People Hate Wet Timing Belts:

https://www.theautopian.com/why-so-many-people-hate-wet-timi...

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#155

Post by lmm »

mikeyouse wrote: post #149
lmm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had enriched himself to the tune of tens of millions of company dollars completely undisclosed to the firm.. he had multiple mansions, yachts, and “CEO Reserve” bank accounts that the BoD wasn’t aware of. Really? Why did none of that come through in the court case then? I don't like the norm of giving CEOs valuable benefits instead of cash, but it's undeniably an accepted norm, especially in Japan. He was convic…

The SEC found that he had over $140M in undisclosed compensation, much of it hidden from Nissan’s management: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2019/comp246... The French have multiple arrest warrants for him due to multiple overlapping fraud and embezzlement cases: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230704-second-french... The BVI found that tens of millions of dollars stored there and the luxury…

> The SEC found that he had over $140M in undisclosed compensation, much of it hidden from Nissan’s management: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2019/comp246...

That looks to be one side's claims, and even this one-sided telling acknowledges that he never received any of that money, and that the CFO and finance department signed off on what happened.

> It didn't come out in the court case because he fled the country before he was tried!

He fled the country after being detained and isolated (especially from his wife) for literally years without actually being charged or getting to trial. They were blatantly trying to break him without having to go to the trouble of actually proving a case. And the trial I'm talking about, that convicted him on exactly one count, was held in his absence after he escaped and had no reason to not throw everything at him.

If and when he's convicted in a fair trial under international norms where he gets a fair chance to defend himself, I'll condemn him for that. But until then I'm not going to take the allegations of the people who wanted him gone at face value.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#156

Post by mikeyouse »

lmm wrote: post #155
mikeyouse wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC found that he had over $140M in undisclosed compensation, much of it hidden from Nissan’s management: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2019/comp246... The French have multiple arrest warrants for him due to multiple overlapping fraud and embezzlement cases: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230704-second-french... The BVI found that tens of millions of dollars stored there and the luxury…

> The SEC found that he had over $140M in undisclosed compensation, much of it hidden from Nissan’s management: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/complaints/2019/comp246 ... That looks to be one side's claims, and even this one-sided telling acknowledges that he never received any of that money, and that the CFO and finance department signed off on what happened. > It didn't come out in the court case because he f…

> Even this one-sided telling acknowledges that he never received any of that money, and that the CFO and finance department signed off on what happened.

It absolutely doesn't say that.. and it's not a credit to Carlos that many of his schemes to steal tens of millions of dollars in the future were discovered before he could do so.

> In addition to the more than $90 million in undisclosed and unpaid compensation, Ghosn and his subordinates knowingly or recklessly made, or caused to be made, false and misleading statements regarding more than $50 million of additional pension benefits for Ghosn. These included misleading Nissan’s CFO and other Nissan executives regarding the accounting for the additional pension amounts, and creating a false disclosure to support how Nissan accounted for them

[..]

> On or around February 23, 2015, at Ghosn’s direction, Nissan Employee 1 submitted an “Application for Budget Usage” signed by Ghosn, Nissan Employee 1, and Nissan’s CFO, to approve the use of the CEO reserve to book the LTIP awards. Nissan’s CFO was falsely told that the LTIP awards were a broad-based grant to numerous Nissan participants rather than that the vast majority was for Ghosn and included exchange rate protection on the inflated retirement allowance. Relying on this false information, Nissan’s CFO approved and signed off on the LTIP expense request, and the amounts were recorded over three fiscal years. Nissan’s CFO would not have approved booking the LTIP expense without additional disclosure if he had known the truth about its actual intended use.

The board approved Ghosn to create a subsidary to invest in new technologies and instead he spent over $20M on houses for himself in Rio and Beirut...

I literally can't believe people defend this level of corruption. He didn't spend "years" in jail awaiting trial, it was 3 months after the first arrest, another month after the second and then he fled the country within a year of his first arrest [the Japanese kept him in jail for those first 3 months because for some reason they thought he was a flight risk!)

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#157

Post by rtpg »

gottorf wrote: post #133
mikeyouse wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had enriched himself to the tune of tens of millions of company dollars completely undisclosed to the firm.. he had multiple mansions, yachts, and “CEO Reserve” bank accounts that the BoD wasn’t aware of. The men who were “so eager” to help him escape were paid upwards of $1M to do so… man I’m getting tired of people justifying ludicrous amounts of graft and theft. If other people embezzle as well, send them to pr…

> If other people embezzle as well, send them to prison, but there’s no universe in which Ghosn is clean. Well, selective justice is a form of injustice. I only have superficial knowledge of the Ghosn saga, but if what the GP alleges is true, then it's not fair to Ghosn that he's prosecuted for something that others get a pass. Of course, I take your point that it's entirely possible to be a bigcorp CEO without fraud…

There are plenty of criciticisms about the means by which he was prosecuted but "others get a pass but he doesn't" is not a great way of thinking about this.

If the government decides to get more serious about this stuff, there will be firsts! There will be people who "got away with it"! It's never applied perfectly evenly. You gotta start somewhere.

Of course the way he was thrown around, when they could have impounded a bunch of his assets and just restricted his movements... the police have their ways of doing things and restriction of speech in particular to avoid coverups is probably a huge chunk of their motivations.

Ghosn isn't the first executive in Japan to ever be arrested. But maybe the police felt the stakes were too high. During the Livedoor scandal, Horie had to post a 300 million yen bond for his temporary freedom, and that was for an "internet company". How much would Ghosn's bond need to be in comparison? Not saying that this is the right way to go about things, but it feels at least consistent.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#158

Post by germinalphrase »

ty6853 wrote: post #144
thuddrff567gg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Ghosn was trained as an engineer at École des Mines de Paris after a humble background in the 3rd world including continual sickness from unsanitary waterwater. He worked from the bottom up in R&D at Michelin and did the impossible turning it around during hyperinflation period in Brazil. By all estimations he's a genius with as good of chops as anyone could ask for his responsibilities, with a unique set of citizens…

“Even his escape from Japan was just stunningly executed and the perfect selection of professionals with technical competence to pull it off.”

I’m only generally aware of the series of events here. Any good write ups?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#159

Post by lmm »

rtpg wrote: post #157
gottorf wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If other people embezzle as well, send them to prison, but there’s no universe in which Ghosn is clean. Well, selective justice is a form of injustice. I only have superficial knowledge of the Ghosn saga, but if what the GP alleges is true, then it's not fair to Ghosn that he's prosecuted for something that others get a pass. Of course, I take your point that it's entirely possible to be a bigcorp CEO without fraud…

There are plenty of criciticisms about the means by which he was prosecuted but "others get a pass but he doesn't" is not a great way of thinking about this. If the government decides to get more serious about this stuff, there will be firsts! There will be people who "got away with it"! It's never applied perfectly evenly. You gotta start somewhere. Of course the way he was thrown around, when they could have impoun…

> If the government decides to get more serious about this stuff, there will be firsts! There will be people who "got away with it"! It's never applied perfectly evenly. You gotta start somewhere.

Sure. But if that "somewhere" just happens to be the literal 1 foreigner among literally hundreds of CEOs doing the same thing, there will naturally be raised eyebrows.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#160

Post by 7speter »

protocolture wrote: post #117
silisili wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already they're an embarrassing car to own I don't know if that's true, but I find it all pretty funny regardless. Five or more years ago, people hated Tesla drivers, either because they represented wealth or that they were seen as progressive 'tree huggers'. Today people seem to hate Tesla drivers because the brand is for right wing nazis. I think both takes are misguided, and I don't know how popular those takes…

I didnt have an opinion of them until I sat in one. I hated the interior. Its very much like silicon valley trying to reinvent things that work. People compare it to an iPhone but its like sitting in the Windows 11 start menu. The entire design language of car interiors built up over decades thrown away for no reason. Shits me too because I kinda dig the retro aesthetic of the cybertruck. Its just completely destroye…

I took a Tesla cab (the crossover SUV). I don't see how you can describe the interior as anything remotely utilitarian (even the Windows start menu is, even if you don't like Windows); the thing was barren other than the tablet for a console in the front. I understand that might be the entry level version, but you can get a lot more car interior for the price from other makers.
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