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No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

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Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#151
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with pushing payments is that the cost of fraud falls on the payer. In the pull model, if the payer says it was unauthorized, the rules favor the payer--restoring the payer account happens as a matter of course, and disputes are handled subsequently. This sucks for the payee, but they're usually businesses who are more sophisticated and better placed to handle these issues. But in the push model, the pres…

Pulling fraud with ACH is pretty rare. All the scammers trick people into sending them money, or take over account and send it, this is more common with phones and Zelle. The latter would be handled with current system. The former isn't handled with current system, and would be helped if there was way to reject transfers to help with return money scams. There is danger that people will send money on bogus requests, b…

> There is danger that people will send money on bogus requests

It's a huge danger. This is why there are so many Bitcoin ATMs in convenience stores. Scammers call vulnerable people and induce them to send them Bitcoin. The number of people who you can convince to withdraw hard currency from their bank and feed it into a Bitcoin machine on the request of their "sick nephew" or "Microsoft Security Team" is mind blowing. Even elderly former police and attorneys do this.

Push payments make it much, much easier--now it's just a click away. The risk is higher for the scammer and it's easier to trace as compared to Bitcoin transfers. But it will be an endless game of whack-a-mole, and because the losses won't primarily fall on banks, payment networks, or other least code avoiders (unlike with credit cards--especially--or other forms of pull payment in general), there's less direct economic incentive to do prevention. We'll likely end up with more centralized, government policing, which will be far less effective and generate more political friction.

Push payments are the future. They're already ubiquitous in many other countries. But while it will streamline day-to-day transactions, there are going to be many more victims of fraud left holding the bag. And you can see this in Europe, where push payment fraud is rapidly expanding.

And even if, in nominal dollar amount, total push fraud ended up equivalent to pull (e.g. credit card) fraud, the social cost is greater as you end up with a small number of people bearing all the costs, whereas with pull fraud the costs are effectively spread across society in the form of slightly higher transaction costs and goods & services prices. There's no built-in transfer mechanism (i.e. tax) like that in push fraud because the incentive and accountability structure is radically different, notwithstanding that in the abstract it's a very simple change in who is considered the initiator of a payment.

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing I can’t ever come to understand about crypto. It’s purely about perception of value. At least with some precious metal, it has a floor value as a function of its practical uses and abundance. Which leads me to believe that the only thing that could be honestly said is that a crypto is purely about winners and suckers and timing.

That's true of everything we use as money, including precious metals. You can't eat them, live in them, use them as weapons, walk down the street in them. They have value bacause we all agree that they do and we all agree to use them as a means to exchange that value. Also, and this is important and I should have said it first, they have value because their supply is restricted. The same is true for crypto. It's fung…

It's mostly correct except it's just the governments that agree to take gold and silver to settle debts (no, going off "gold standard" did not change this, gold and silver are still accepted as bank reserves around the world). And governments have the power to take your property to settle your debts with them. So for anyone, who is a subject of a government assigned debt (via taxation usually), gold has very practical value as it allows to keep one's property.

The same is not generally true for crypto, perhaps in El Salvador they really take crypto to settle taxes but in any other country crypto only has value because of speculators.

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#155

They might not be disrupting them, but they are definitely causing competition in the market place again. My main bank account is with Halifax, everyday spend is with Starling. Then Monzo for anything risky. Before Starling/Monzo the Halifax app was _crap_. Barely got any updates and was very basic. Now? The Halifax app is on par with the newer banks, and sometimes even release new features before (e.g. scan cheque i…

Interesting... We've had scanned check deposits at Chase (US) for at least 15 years, I think.

most countries abandoned checks at least 15 years...

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#156
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very US centric article, a lot of the disruptions listed are incumbent 'big bank' products in other jurisdictions. I feel the lack of adaptability is likely a result of US market conditions/regulations rather than lack of innovation.

The US crash of 2008 exposed the nature of their banking system leverage ratios, and worker 401k vulnerability to dubious ETFs. The incoming market volatility will likely have winners and losers... but historically it was mostly losers (>6.4 million families and counting.) =3

    > worker 401k vulnerability to dubious ETFs
Can you explain this part in my detail? Do you mean money market funds that "broke the buck"?

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#157

The products being pointed out in this article as an attempt to disrupt banks seem to be basically the same product for a different price. Like, a high-yield savings account is just a savings account with a better price, right? How do you disrupt an industry by selling the same products? The advantage of startups is that they're more nimble, can pivot to fit the market better, and can adapt to customer requests faste…

Most people have zero notion of what money is... let alone what banks offer as a business. Indeed, the entrenched investment industry has become less fair (or an outright liability) to customers, but casinos are at least honest with their customers. Gambling with other peoples money was not a real financial service until relatively recently. There is a market for a fiscally sustainable savings/investment industry, bu…

    > bonded fiduciary services
I never saw this term before. Google shows me nothing. Can you explain what you mean, please?

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#158

No one is disrupting banks because the mega banks have the sole power of creating credit out of thin air, and no upstart fintech company has this power. To gain this power requires the creation of a bank, which as you can imagine, is probably the most gate-kept activity on earth. Andreesen talked about this in his Rogan appearance. The banks and gov brought the hammer down on crypto because it was a legitimate threat…

in brazil and india, american backed "fintech" could create credit like you descibe, plus none of the pesky revenue reporting required fom banks.

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US crash of 2008 exposed the nature of their banking system leverage ratios, and worker 401k vulnerability to dubious ETFs. The incoming market volatility will likely have winners and losers... but historically it was mostly losers (>6.4 million families and counting.) =3

> worker 401k vulnerability to dubious ETFs Can you explain this part in my detail? Do you mean money market funds that "broke the buck"?

ETFs are a relatively recent phenomenon, the criticism I remember from 2008 era is having paycheck + employee stock purchase plan + 401k concentrated in a single stock - employer's.

Re: No one is disrupting banks – at least not the big ones

#160

I don’t think disrupting banks is even possible. The time, money, and energy required is simply not realistic. There’s so many disrupt-able industries out there and I’m not even sure banking is the most beneficial one to tackle. It’s a realistic Star Wars story where the Empire always wins because… well it’s the fucking empire. They didn’t get there by losing.

Isn't that usually indicative of a winner-takes-all sector running on pretty thin margins?
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