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Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

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Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#151

Post by GuB-42 »

jpeloquin wrote: post #74

The concept of indirect fitness must be more complicated than explained here. The article explains it as a worker bee sharing 75% of her genes with her sisters, but only 50% with a child, so there is selection pressure for workers to be sterile and self-sacrificing. But few genes actually differ between individuals, so the percentages are much higher. E.g., I share ~ 99% of my genes with each one of you reading this.…

It doesn't matter how much bees have in common. The idea is that in bees, altruistic traits, that is those that produce more sisters by helping the queen have a 75% chance of being passed, because sisters share 75% of a worker bee genes. Most of the genes are the same, of course, bees won't become dogs or anything like that, but a few of them differ, and these are the one that matter.

Could worker bees be fertile and have a selfish traits that let them have more children, they would only have a 50% chance of passing these, because children share 50% of genes.

So: 75% of altruistic genes pass vs 50% of selfish genes. Altruistic genes win. Humans can't pass 75% of their genome this way, so that altruistic genes have no intrinsic advantage over selfish genes.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#152

Post by raincole »

raincole wrote: post #106
_1tem wrote: post #43

I don't understand why any "why" question in evolutionary biology is ever satisfied with a "survival of the fittest" truism. Any evolutionary explanation you give me is also falsified by the existence of another species with a different/opposite trait. Whatever explanation you give for a bee's barbed stinger is falsified by the wasp's non-barbed one. Also doesn't answer other questions, such as why didn't bees evolve…

I think you misunderstood what people mean by "why" in the context of evolution. For example, you ask a random person what his job is. He: I fix TVs You: Why? He: Uh, that's what keeps a roof over me and keeps my family fed? You: But clearly other humans do other jobs and still have roofs. So it's not a real "why". Your statement is falsified. > Evolutionary explanations like these for "why" things are the way they a…

* creators -> creatures

This typo somehow fits the theme in a discussion over evolution ;P

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#153

Post by geoka9 »

stavros wrote: post #142
cryptonector wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's also her daughters' slave. They make her work (lay eggs). They decide when to make new queens. They decide when to swarm with the old queen, and when they do they put her on a diet first so she can lose weight so she can fly (they won't let her eat much for two weeks), and they'll push her out of the hive when the time comes. Humans only really get stung by queen honeybees when manipulating them. Normally the q…

Why does she go out to mate? Aren't the drones in the hive?

Maybe for the same reason we don't marry our cousins? :)

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#154

Post by crazydoggers »

cryptonector wrote: post #109

Honeybee queens are the only honeybees with stingers that don't die when they sting. That's because the queen bee's stinger has no barbs, and the reason for that is that the queen must not die easily, and she must use her stinger, so if she's going to survive at all her stinger has to not have barbs. The queen almost certainly has to use her stinger when she exits her cocoon: to kill ther other queens that are about…

Great point about the queen bee. The queen also uses her stinger inside her own hive. If the hive believes she is nearing the end of her reproductive abilities, they’ll rear other queens. She has to defend her position and quickly goes to kill the new queens when they emerge or she’ll be replaced. Beekeepers generally replace their queens every 2 years or so, and have to remove the old queen to prevent this behavior as well.

> That's why you don't go near a hive without protection.

This is true and recommended for just about everyone.. however, I have known some beekeepers that can do it. If you smoke the bees well, they’ll get calm enough that they won’t sting. It’s thought to be likely because the smoke covers pheromones, and also because the smoke causes the bees to begin hoarding honey in case they need to quickly leave a burning hive.

I was never brave enough to attempt it, however during my time beekeeping I was amazed at how magical smoke was. Picking up handfuls of bees in their hive and not being swarmed feels like a super power.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#156

Post by Jedd »

stavros wrote: post #142
cryptonector wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's also her daughters' slave. They make her work (lay eggs). They decide when to make new queens. They decide when to swarm with the old queen, and when they do they put her on a diet first so she can lose weight so she can fly (they won't let her eat much for two weeks), and they'll push her out of the hive when the time comes. Humans only really get stung by queen honeybees when manipulating them. Normally the q…

Why does she go out to mate? Aren't the drones in the hive?

I think two answers, though as per TFA there's probably a lot more behind this:

First, she wants to get the best genetic material, and flying high is one of those tests for drones to pass, and

Second, needs to acquire genetic material from different bloodlines, hence does the business with several drones (obviously not an option within the hive).

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#157

Post by inopinatus »

teeray wrote: post #117
cryptonector wrote: post #109

Honeybee queens are the only honeybees with stingers that don't die when they sting. That's because the queen bee's stinger has no barbs, and the reason for that is that the queen must not die easily, and she must use her stinger, so if she's going to survive at all her stinger has to not have barbs. The queen almost certainly has to use her stinger when she exits her cocoon: to kill ther other queens that are about…

The queen bee is a formidable final boss with a bad-ass origin story.

it's a Game of Drones

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#158

Post by cryptonector »

stavros wrote: post #142
cryptonector wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's also her daughters' slave. They make her work (lay eggs). They decide when to make new queens. They decide when to swarm with the old queen, and when they do they put her on a diet first so she can lose weight so she can fly (they won't let her eat much for two weeks), and they'll push her out of the hive when the time comes. Humans only really get stung by queen honeybees when manipulating them. Normally the q…

Why does she go out to mate? Aren't the drones in the hive?

The drones in the hive are her brothers. She needs more gentic diversity, so she goes out to mate with other colonies' drones. Her attendants know where to go find them because they've scouted them before.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#159

Post by cryptonector »

ivankelly wrote: post #144
cryptonector wrote: post #109

Honeybee queens are the only honeybees with stingers that don't die when they sting. That's because the queen bee's stinger has no barbs, and the reason for that is that the queen must not die easily, and she must use her stinger, so if she's going to survive at all her stinger has to not have barbs. The queen almost certainly has to use her stinger when she exits her cocoon: to kill ther other queens that are about…

The bees in a swarm have filled themselves with food before swarming, so they’re stuffed, so it’s hard to flex the abdomen to make a sting

Yes, there is this too.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#160

Post by cryptonector »

crazydoggers wrote: post #154
cryptonector wrote: post #109

Honeybee queens are the only honeybees with stingers that don't die when they sting. That's because the queen bee's stinger has no barbs, and the reason for that is that the queen must not die easily, and she must use her stinger, so if she's going to survive at all her stinger has to not have barbs. The queen almost certainly has to use her stinger when she exits her cocoon: to kill ther other queens that are about…

Great point about the queen bee. The queen also uses her stinger inside her own hive. If the hive believes she is nearing the end of her reproductive abilities, they’ll rear other queens. She has to defend her position and quickly goes to kill the new queens when they emerge or she’ll be replaced. Beekeepers generally replace their queens every 2 years or so, and have to remove the old queen to prevent this behavior…

> I was never brave enough to attempt it, however during my time beekeeping I was amazed at how magical smoke was. Picking up handfuls of bees in their hive and not being swarmed feels like a super power.

I'm not brave enough to attempt it either, except -maybe, someday- with a) smoke, b) a veil instead of a suit, c) nukes rather than mature hives, d) in top-bar hive bodies rather than Langstroth boxes. Fuck Langstroth boxes -- you can't help but kill bees in those boxes, and the moment you kill one you're in trouble. Top-bar hives make it much much easier to not kill any bees.

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