EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban • Hacker News Board

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#151

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:13 AM UTC

dudus wrote: post #141

isodev wrote: post #58

It’s funny how they’re shutting down TikTok because it’s “manipulative and anti-democratic” while that’s a core trait of every algorithmic/engagement social media. Twitter and Threads should be banned as well then.

They had the option to divest into an American entity. But failed or didn't want to do it. You have the freedom of speech to manipulate and be anti-democratic as long as you are the US government or bound by its control.

Actually, the option to divest is to escape control by the Chinese government, not to enter control by the US government.

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#152

Post by gunian » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:13 AM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #132

gunian wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you correlate the hacks of anonymous to that you will get an interesting picture to say the least :) As someone that loves dev stuff it is so beautiful not a single soldier deployed but an entire region destabilized and so many people killed

I was paying attention to telecomix and US forces in-country maintaining cellular infra to fight against the information blackouts but what was going down on 4chan?

Idk tbh never been on 4chan but you ever wonder why that infra was being defended? Ever heard of a guy called Pinochet? Noriega? Videla? Doe? Or my personal favorite Mobutu?

Why are we pretending movements can't be co-opted or engineered or the CIA does things out of love would expect that on Reddit but not on HN. A lot of the countries involved did not recover look at their GDP pre vs during vs now. Look at how power centers have shifted and isolated Iran since then :)

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#153

Post by BLKNSLVR » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:16 AM UTC

nextaccountic wrote: post #145

lolinder wrote: post #3

> Shutting down communications platforms or forcing their reorganization based on concerns of foreign propaganda and anti-national manipulation is an eminently anti-democratic tactic, one that the US has previously condemned globally. These platforms are fundamentally anti-democratic in their very nature, increasingly so in the age of LLMs. They're places where people buy a voice and the illusion of support by astrot…

How exactly does this differ from Facebook and Instagram?

Reds under TikTok beds.

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#154

Post by jazzyjackson » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:21 AM UTC

gunian wrote: post #152

jazzyjackson wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paying attention to telecomix and US forces in-country maintaining cellular infra to fight against the information blackouts but what was going down on 4chan?

Idk tbh never been on 4chan but you ever wonder why that infra was being defended? Ever heard of a guy called Pinochet? Noriega? Videla? Doe? Or my personal favorite Mobutu? Why are we pretending movements can't be co-opted or engineered or the CIA does things out of love would expect that on Reddit but not on HN. A lot of the countries involved did not recover look at their GDP pre vs during vs now. Look at how powe…

I definitely agree USA was pulling for the revolutionaries, and making sure the powers that be couldn't snuff out all communications was essential in throwing the fight, I just don't believe in inception as far as inspiring a revolt in the first place.

I mention 4chan because I thought it synonymous with anonymous, and I was wondering what you knew that I didn't re: what hacking was happening.

And yes Mobutu with his little leopard hat is my favorite too.

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#155

Post by BLKNSLVR » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:22 AM UTC

braiamp wrote: post #15

lolinder wrote: post #3

> Shutting down communications platforms or forcing their reorganization based on concerns of foreign propaganda and anti-national manipulation is an eminently anti-democratic tactic, one that the US has previously condemned globally. These platforms are fundamentally anti-democratic in their very nature, increasingly so in the age of LLMs. They're places where people buy a voice and the illusion of support by astrot…

There's a better way: privacy laws. The US government decided not to use it.

Privacy legislation isn't going to happen because it's too late.

It's now an industry, with enough companies with enough employees and, more importantly, enough political and economic power to destroy almost any attempts to push legislation that may actually protect privacy in any real way.

But, honestly, I don't think the TikTok ban has any overlap with privacy concerns. It's pure cold war.

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#156

Post by suraci » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:26 AM UTC

gunian wrote: post #113

cship2 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are glancing over the fact that American media platforms are not really controlled by the US government except for legal restrictions on hate speech and violence, and that there is an extremely diverse set of voices that can be heard on the 'American' (or rather non-Chinese) internet. Think Binney, Snowden, Assange would probably disagree with you.

It's a cool phenomena tbh if I was rich enough to go to college I would love to do a thesis on it We know both China and the US are nation states with global ambitions so it would be logical for both to use digital platforms to surveil and perform social engineering. We also have had whistleblowers on both sides that have come forward and said this is a common practice. We also know based on simple game theory it is…

Their's an old joke about this:

A Russian is on an airliner heading to the US, and the American in the seat next to him asks, “So what brings you to the US?” The Russian replies, “I’m studying the American approach to propaganda.” The American says, “What propaganda?” The Russian says, “That’s what I mean.”

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#157

Post by gorgoiler » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:28 AM UTC

ranger_danger wrote: post #38

gorgoiler wrote: post #32

It is hard to love the notion that banning a third party’s app is infringing upon my own right to free speech. If it were a ban on the Internet then that seems to make more sense. It’s analogous to a ban on paper, pens, or bullhorns. I can be sympathetic to the idea that, for some people, one particular proprietary app is their main tool for expression, even if that’s hardly ideal. A ban on routers made by a specific…

if youtube was being banned instead for the same reason (pretend it was owned by ByteDance), would you feel the same way? what about any other website/platform that you like? what if this was YOUR business getting banned?

Yes, that’s a good way to think about it.

What if it was a ban, not on printing presses, but on a specific model of printing press, made in China, that happens to have 99% market share.

I want to try to see an analogy with Freenode, Libera, and IRC, but that was self inflicted damage by a private entity rather than by a government mandate.

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#158

Post by gunian » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:31 AM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #154

gunian wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk tbh never been on 4chan but you ever wonder why that infra was being defended? Ever heard of a guy called Pinochet? Noriega? Videla? Doe? Or my personal favorite Mobutu? Why are we pretending movements can't be co-opted or engineered or the CIA does things out of love would expect that on Reddit but not on HN. A lot of the countries involved did not recover look at their GDP pre vs during vs now. Look at how powe…

I definitely agree USA was pulling for the revolutionaries, and making sure the powers that be couldn't snuff out all communications was essential in throwing the fight, I just don't believe in inception as far as inspiring a revolt in the first place. I mention 4chan because I thought it synonymous with anonymous, and I was wondering what you knew that I didn't re: what hacking was happening. And yes Mobutu with his…

The leopard hat was indeed the best :)

I didn't know anonymous was active on 4chan it's kind of uncomfortable for people of my ilk to be there so I avoid but that kind of checks out

Do you think there is/was any advantage to having a group labelled as a freedom fighter / vigilante perform hacking operations as opposed to official state actors during color revolutions?

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#159

Post by jazzyjackson » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:32 AM UTC

suraci wrote: post #148

jazzyjackson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although i would never put it past the DoD under Clinton to manipulate an election here and a revolution there, my impression of Silicon Valley during the Arab Spring is a bunch of self congratulatory preening over the power of social media. I always felt the CIAs greatest trick is letting people credit them with overthrowing governments, a power they don't actually possess, except to tip the scales with a little gun…

Hunger and poverty (mostly caused by sanctions and economic crises) are dry firewood, and social media are the sparks. The former is the underlying contradiction, and the latter is the force of organization Both of these elements are required for a successful color revolution

Force of organization is an interesting phrase, never heard that before. Reminds me of catalyzing crystal seeds, or how at the quark level mass arises out of information/order/entropy in the complexity sense. The more ordered the heavier it is. (Maybe this is fringe/kook/IANAPhysicist).

I guess before social media there would be other sources of order, churches, political organizations, youth groups. Maybe in the absence of that Twitter is all the revolutionaries had left (but my above conjecture is, there were greater sources of organization in Tunisia, Egypt and elsewhere than that which was legible online. (As an otherwise unaffiliated American I have no way of knowing.)

Re: EFF statement on U.S. Supreme Court's decision to uphold TikTok ban

#160

Post by gunian » Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:37 AM UTC

suraci wrote: post #156

gunian wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a cool phenomena tbh if I was rich enough to go to college I would love to do a thesis on it We know both China and the US are nation states with global ambitions so it would be logical for both to use digital platforms to surveil and perform social engineering. We also have had whistleblowers on both sides that have come forward and said this is a common practice. We also know based on simple game theory it is…

Their's an old joke about this: A Russian is on an airliner heading to the US, and the American in the seat next to him asks, “So what brings you to the US?” The Russian replies, “I’m studying the American approach to propaganda.” The American says, “What propaganda?” The Russian says, “That’s what I mean.”

This made me chuckle :) it truly is beautiful it's sad its one of those fields you can't take credit for what you do but the people running it deserve all the credit. An impossible ask but would be cool to read about the tech behind it in today's digital age.