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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#151
post #74
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was Oct 7th retaliation to, exactly?

It's a mystery: https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg None of this started on Oct 7th, the inciting incident was the founding of Israel itself on top of an existing state with an existing population who were violently expelled to make way. Everything else is just ongoing fallout from that.

This is revisionist history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_...

First of all, 1947 was a civil war between Muslim Arabs and Jews, when the British left and caused a vacuum of power. Much like a far larger civil war in India in 1947 when the Britishers left and caused a vacuum of power between Muslims and Hindus. 1 million people died in that one, but both sides established states and people moved on. Not so in Palestine. Arab League resolution 1547 and Casablanca Protocol made sure their descendants would be stateless for any amount of generations. An unprecedented thing, also UNRWA was established only for this artificially stateless group (every other refugee group in the world goes through UNHCR), UNRWA bureaucracy has labeled all their descendants as “refugees” forever, while in Western countries both Palestinians and Jews (and everyone else) have long moved on and got citizenship.

Second of all, the ones in charge of the place were the British. They defeated the Ottomans (who in turn had been EXTREMELY brutal to Christians including Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians) for over 100 years. Just google the massacres of Chios, Sayfo, Hamidian massacres and the Armenian genocide. To their credit, Palestinian Arabs did not participate in such things, and they were loyal Ottoman subjects. In fact, British had to go and recruit Arabs from Arabia (the Hashemite brothers including King Faisal of Syria and King Abdullah of Jordan) and promise them vast territories (see Lawrence of Arabia) to help them overthrow the Ottomans. The very thing that Ottomans massacred Armenians for (suspecting them of siding with Russia against their empire) the Hashemites ACTUALLY DID.

The Mandate of Palestine was actually unanimously given to Britain by the League of Nations which was set up by Britain and France and a few other winners of WW1 specifically to avoid wars like WW1 and to give each nation self determination peacefully (they forgot Kurds). The Russians approved of this — Russia had become embroiled in their own civil war, with Bolsheviks like Trotsky supporting the Mandate system because it meant each nation would have self determination. (It was Bolsheviks like Trotsky that exposed the enbarassing Sykes-Pikot agreement to divide Ottoman territory years earlier!)

There were other mandates in Syria, Iraq (Faisal) and Jordan (Abdullah) etc. where Jews were NOT allowed to settle. Funny how almost no one has a problem with THOSE, even though they were literal KINGDOMS, set up by the British under the same Mandate system, with ONE GUY in charge, appointed by British in exchange for helping them win WW1. The Hashemites were from Arabia! But when British did the same with Chaim Weitzmann for helping them win the war vs Germany, and established a national home for Jews in Palestine — ooh no. Jews? What right do THOSE GUYS have to be there?

Third of all, the attacks on Jews were happening before any founding of a state. They started happening in 1920 with the Nebi Musa riots, and continued through the 20s and 30s.

The main factor was that the most antisemitic and intolerant people were promoted to be leaders of Palestinian Arabs. I am talking about Al Husseini, and Al Qassam (for whom Hamas named the Qassam rockets and brigades).

Al Husseini whipped many Palestinian Arabs into a xenophobic frenzy much like for example right wing nationalists in Britain have done against immigrants. But he went further and met Hitler, joined the Nazis and even led SS divisions. The guy truly had some genocidal hatred.

Samuel Herbert was the governor put in charge by the British, and he made such bad mistakes as bringing back extremists like Husseini (and Jabotinsky) which the British exiled for fomenting unrest. And he actually maneuvered the young Husseini into being Grant Mufti, when it should have gone to more seasoned Muftis like from the Nashashibi clan and even other Husseinis.

I should also point out that during this entire time, CIVILIAN LEADERS have been FRIENDLY to Jews. Faisal of Syria made an agreement eith Weitzmann to help Zionists. In 1947 Abdullah of Jordan even secretly met with Golda Meir and initially promised to stay out of the civil war in 1947, but had to get involved after Lydda/Ramle.

The mayor of Jaffa (also a Husseini) actually HELPED DEFEND the original Zionist settlement that became Tel Aviv. By the way which btw didnt take anyone’s land, it was built on empty sand dunes.

In fact, I CHALLENGE ANYONE HERE to name one instance — just one — of Jews stealing land prior to 1947 civil war. It’s just a meme that’s completely not true (not a single example).

On the contrary, Jews BOUGHT AND OVERPAID for all the land they had in Palestine, until that civil war. They eradicated Malaria (google Jacob Kliger), drained swamps, planted trees and worked WITH ARABS to make the land livable.

It’s true that many socialist Zionist kibbutzniks and hassidic Jews didnt hire Arabs and preferred to hire Jews so the peasants (fellaheen) were fired from working the land and had to work for Arabs instead. But under capitalism that is completely 100% fine. The same exact thing happened in 1930s depression, as automation like combines displaced farmhands and owners of farms fired tons of farmhands. Read “grapes of wrath” by Steinbeck and others at the time to see the kind of migration that took place from farms and the economic depression that ensued. And yet no one in the USA would justify pogromming the farm owners and tractor operators.

I have found that many anti-zionists if they go back in history start justifying pogroms on Jews much earlier than 1947, for things like “but they bought land and fired people” or “well maybe they would have attacked Al Aqsa”.

Finally, starting in the 1960s, the Soviets and KGB actually trained the Palestine Liberation Organization, and put Arafat in charge of it. They also trained other marxist-leninist militant organizations such as PFLP etc. Much like USA trained mujahideen (Arabic for “jihadists”) in Afghanistan and fomented a civil war leaving 2 million Afghan civilians dead!

The Palestine Liberation Organization and Arafat fought a civil war vs the king of Jordan in 1970 in which up to 25,000 Palestinians were killed in 11 days! (No antizionist talks about that.). Got expelled to Lebanon and kicked off a civil war there (years before Israel invaded Lebanon to help Christians). They also got HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS expelled from Kuwait because Arafat sided with Saddam. The PLO and Hamas have been the most destructive forces for Palestinian civilians across the entire region, and even Arafat himself admitted that “what Kuwait did to us was worse than the Nakba”.

Look, this is the true history and the main factor is that the ANGRY TERRORISTS with foreign funding (whether it was the generation of Islamist Al Qassam, the marxist PLO, or the Islamist Hamas or PIJ) dominated instead of CIVILIAN LEADERS.

Palestinian civilian leaders chose peace and annexation to Syria / Jordan every chance they got. People forget this. They were pragmatic and sane people, and regular Palestinians were better off under them than militants armed by KGB or now Iran who taught “struggle forever” to kids of plebs while they became billionaires living in mansions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deiShtWReYE

Ask any Palestinian on the street and they have NO IDEA about any of their leaders before “Abu Ammar” aka Arafat. So sad! In fact they even dont know about Al Husseini. Soviet Propaganda had done an amazing job. Most antizionists don’t realize the KGB roots of Palestine liberation movements nor that they are saying word for word the KGB propaganda from the 60s:

https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=481

https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=480

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#152
post #99
post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire. Trump just wanted a deal - he loves being the "deal guy". Frankly, I'm shocked he didn't push Bibi into waiting until after the inauguration. Guess he felt like…

> Frankly, I'm shocked he didn't push Bibi into waiting until after the inauguration

If you read between the lines it was clear Biden was also pushing hard to wrap it up before his term ends to add it to his legacy (that's how NYT spun it at least). But Trump also had his people negotiating there as well and enough of add a hard-line persuasive influence to force Bibi to show up in Doha last-minute on a weekend during Sabbath [1]. While Biden really didn't seem to have much influence there in the last yr.

But ultimately they both get to take credit.

The cease-fire ending will eventually need a conclusion during Trumps term as well.

[1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-salty-envoy-may-forced-1549...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#153

So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.

[flagged]

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#154
post #112
post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

[flagged]

> And also that TRUMP turned out to be the lesser of the evils.

This is a pretty shortsighted perspective. At least wait 4 more years :).

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#155
post #147
post #139

Time to pay the piper. IMO Iran is the winner (least damaged) out of all this. Their proxies are smashed, but the core strength is still the same. Israel has blown all its international credibility. The International Court of Justice verdict will be very interesting. If it goes against Israel then BDS will (should) become the policy for all countries.

Iran invested all its resources into proxies waging wars for it. Them being smashed means Iran is ruined on all those war investments. With economy in shambles and expansionist war failed, it's hardly "least damaged".

This is untrue on multiple levels. Iran invested most of its resources on its own military - the proxies are extremely cheap - and Iran's most powerful Iraqi proxies are fine, while the Houthis actually came out of this stronger.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#156
post #112
post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

[flagged]

> Trump turned out to be the lesser of the evils

This is based purely on his word which isn't worth all that much.

Meanwhile Biden's actions has resulted in a ceasefire.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#157
post #55

So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.

Realistically, West Bank will be gone (totally settled, all Palestinians removed) in 15 years. Gaza will further be ghettoized and, pessimistically, will be basically gone in 50 years or so.

[flagged]

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#158
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Polls showing people now recognizing Israel are the bad guys and Hamas are the guys Was the second “guys” supposed to have an adjective attached to it?

Why? I think most of us can recognize they're not necessarily good by our standards, so they're not the good guys. But they are the ones resisting a genocidal apartheid colonialist state, so they're at least better than the Israelis. So if we call Israel the bad guys, that leaves Hamas as... the guys.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has likely also created multiple generations of anger and hate against themselves. They may have reduced the likelihood of another Oct 7 in the near term, but 50 years is not something I would count on

[flagged]

You've got your history mixed up. It was the Christians who persecuted Jews throughout history, culminating in the holocaust by, guess who, Christians. Jews thrived under Muslim rule during the middle ages.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#160
post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire

There is no evidence of this.

Every single time Trump has blustered about doing something e.g. turning Canada into a 51st, buying Greenland the parties have been concerned but not particularly worried. Because he doesn't follow through.

So the idea that we should credit Trump for his words and ignore the months of diplomacy and pressure from not just the US but Middle Eastern countries is bizarre to me. Ceasefires are always far more complex and nuanced than they look from the outside.

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