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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#151

Post by pjmlp »

soerxpso wrote: post #38
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Why would they be incentivized to make you buy new hardware? Unless you're alleging that their hardware partners pushed for it, in which case there would likely be logs of communications that are pretty illegal.

Yes they do, XBox and Surface devices.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#152

Post by wkat4242 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #127
p_ing wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] Yes it does. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. The vast majority of users aren't going to have the case opened and a special-purpose PCIe device installed to steal keys over DMA. The vast majority of users aren't going to have a dTPM vulnerable to SPI s…

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. That's kind of the point. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be de…

> That's kind of the point. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be defeated by a simple password without any TPM.

True, any preboot password method (even fully software) will be sufficient to prevent data exposure when a laptop is stolen.

The whole TPM + secure boot thing is more to prevent evil maid attacks where a laptop is messed with (eg installing a bootloader that intercepts the password) and then placing it back in the user's possession so they can be tricked into entering the password.

That whole scenario is extremely far-fetched for home users. Laptops get stolen but then they're gone.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#153

Post by jay_kyburz »

baby_souffle wrote: post #108
tedunangst wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is rather contradictory. There's way less friction to selling Windows 11 licenses to existing hardware owners. Requiring a new PC only means fewer people will be running 11.

> This is rather contradictory. Not necessarily. I'd bet that the fraction of $ microsoft makes from selling windows licenses _retail_ is a rounding error away from zero compared to what they get selling bulk/volume licenses to corporate / OEM. It's in microsoft's interest to make sure that dell/hp/lenovo ... etc have reasons to keep buying licenses to put on the new computers they're selling. I suspect that TPM is a…

I also discovered a few years ago that OEM licenses can't be transferred to another device.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#154

Post by pjmlp »

WeylandYutani wrote: post #50
stackghost wrote: post #2

>The FSF's focus on TPMs here is not only technically wrong, it's indicative of a failure to understand what's actually happening in the industry. This sounds 100% on-brand for the FSF. The FSF's primary public-facing persona has peculiar computing habits so far removed from the mainstream that it's likely he has absolutely no clue how the real world works. In fact by his own statement he has to rely on volunteers to…

Normal people watch Netflix on a smart TV. Or their phone. Hell the only reason why I turn on my computer these days is for videogames. I wonder if the decline of the desktop has someone worried at Microsoft.

It certainly has, and they have repented themselves of killing Windows Phone, turns out that when one wants to push stuff like AI and XBox ecosystem, having 10% market share is way better than not having none at all.

Then again, they have been so busy with Azure and XBox profits, that Windows development has turned into a mess, of GUI teams fighting for resources, while the apps division couldn't care less, now filled with people that grown up using UNIX instead of Windows, and see Web UIs everywhere.

Hence why Windows might be my main desktop, yet I eventually returned into Web/distributed computing world, disappointed with how UWP/WinRT development turned out.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#155

Post by watermelon0 »

Rohansi wrote: post #92
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Requiring TPM can actually benefit multiplayer video games because it introduces a secure way to identify hardware being used by cheaters. Right now everything being used by games is easily spoofed by cheats so cheaters just need to get a new account to continue cheating after being banned.

Such restrictions usually mean that you can't play games via Windows VM or on Linux directly.

Additionally, there are cheats using video capture cards, which cannot practically be prevented.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#156

Post by pjmlp »

p_l wrote: post #125
zb3 wrote: post #15

> GPU vendors have quietly deployed all of this technology Citation or technical details needed. Obviously it "makes sense" that for 4K HD content you "probably" want to offload the decoding into the GPU, but this is the first time I see this mentioned and there are no links to technical details. In contrast, TEE / TrustZone and even the recent AVF with pVM - these are well documented technologies.

It was a big deal when Vista was released, with coincided with a lot of generational change in home computers (Watching Blu-Ray on computer still seemed to be a thing to expect, HDMI with HDCP was introduced, etc). There was a lot of talk about protected media path in Vista, how it linked with HDCP, how it killed hardware accelerated audio (including causing considerable death blow to promises made by OpenAL), etc.

Even game consoles moved into software accelerated audio, as it turns out doing it in software, with CPU vector instructions is fast enough, while being more flexible.

This is also the way of the future for graphics, do way with any kind of hardware pipelines, and go back to software rendering, but having it accelerated on the GPU, as general purpose accelerator device.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#157

Post by codethief »

dannyobrien wrote: post #21
MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

IIUI it's mostly a question of a mess of contractual language and incentives. Rightsholders license content, and in their licensing contracts they require a certain level of DRM for certain products. So streamers, etc, implement the DRM to comply with those contracts. Nobody at any level has an incentive or leverage to change the contracts, so the DRM continues.

> IIUI

If I understand incorrectly?

(Jokes aside, though, I haven't been able to figure out what IIUI stands for.)

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#158

Post by cma »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #127
p_ing wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] Yes it does. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. The vast majority of users aren't going to have the case opened and a special-purpose PCIe device installed to steal keys over DMA. The vast majority of users aren't going to have a dTPM vulnerable to SPI s…

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. That's kind of the point. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be de…

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be defeated by a simple password without any TPM.

I've only met one person who's phone was stolen. They grabbed it while it was unlocked and within minutes after began scamming all the person's Instagram and other contacts asking for quick money for an emergency.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#159

Post by watermelon0 »

majormajor wrote: post #10
MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

DRM has likely had a big impact in shifting the casual consumer conversation to "hey they're gonna start down on account sharing" from early-2000s style "here's a straight-up copy I made for you." And this helps prop up the "they'll get a Netflix account to binge the same three shows over and over" part of the business model. The cumulative monthly cost adds up but it feels cheaper than forking over a few hundred buc…

In many cases, downloading torrents and watching on a laptop/PC has a better UX than using streaming services.

For example, it's impossible to watch 4k content on popular streaming services if you use Linux, and even with macOS/Windows you need a specific combination of hardware + OS + browser, if a service even offers it.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#160

Post by red_admiral »

osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

My guess is that the b2b sales of Windows outnumber b2c, if not in volume then certainly in revenue.

Suddenly, enforcing company security policies centrally without the client (laptop) being able to change then and still attest to connect to the corporate VPN, becomes a feature.

After all, it's not your computer, it's the company's.

I think inTune already uses the TPM for that kind of stuff, so "install this before we let you into outlook web, and also we'll check you're not a year behind with windows updates" is a thing.

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